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Effect of Brexit

Discussion in 'Watford' started by Davylad, Mar 26, 2016.

  1. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    I think someone left the bag of idiots open...

    Either UKIP think that Paul Nuttall invented the light bulb or that the Laws of Physics were EU's fault...

    nuts.JPG
     
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  2. yorkshirehornet

    yorkshirehornet Well-Known Member

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    Certainly a lot of fantastical and magical thinking linked to BREXIT.

    I must say Blair was very measured and sensible about the whole thing. I just cant see why virtually every other major figure has just rolled over..
     
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  3. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    Reports tonight that the PM has agreed to meet General Motors. It would seem that her business minister dashed off to Paris to get some deal sorted over Vauxhall moving out of the UK without much success. Maybe directly coming up against the companies that earn the country some money will make her take a step back and think how she will explain to those who lose their jobs that they are better off.
     
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  4. aberdeenhornet

    aberdeenhornet Well-Known Member

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    The real migration will be outward if Scotland "goes its merry way" when the population realize how they'e been mislead by the Nationalists. The lies told by Holyrood make the Brexit leave camp look like angels of truth and virtue. The Scottish economy is heavily reliant on UK trade not EU trade. Its UK trade that has been growing at a faster rate over the past decade, its UK trade that is four times greater than its trade with the EU. I'm still yet to hear an explanation from a Nat of how a relative trade level 1/4 and flat rather than increasing is more important? The fact is Scotland will lose its military construction contracts, it will lose its oil industry, it will lose a large part of its chemical industry and it will lose a large number of its business leaders if it gets the population to vote for independence. Much like the UK Brexit vote this is all being driven by the belief that better alone beats better together, the false assertion that anybody or any country can be independent needs to be crushed. We live in an inter dependent world where advances and success come from working together and reducing the overhead of unnecessary government. If you think the privations caused by Brexit will be avoided I think you should reassess!!! The privations of independence will and this is without question make Scotland or rather the Scottish people the most deprived in Western Europe. Scotland is not a member of the EU and in order to gain its supposed goal (this will disappear as an SNP wish as soon as convenint anyway) we will need an austerity program that will force people to move to the land of opportunity South of Carlisle. Taxation is about to become higher than the rest of the UK, business rates are causing ruptions even within the SNP ranks, unemployment is increasing, Govan remains a declining ghetto. The way to fix all this is fix the economy and improve the pull factors. We already have te most beautiful nature we need government that provides the framework for prosperity for all and looks after the economy not sucks it dry. If Scotland truly relies on inward migration its done a very poor job of making itself attractive in this area with England attracting a far higher inward flow. Blaming Westminster doesn't cut it after 11 years in power..
     
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  5. kchorn

    kchorn Well-Known Member

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    Incoming, incoming, to the shelters <rofl><rofl>

    I think the only reason the SNP has such support is that the rotten English spoil sports wouldn't let Celtic and Rangers enter the Prem but quite happily welcome Swansea and Cardiff :emoticon-0140-rofl:

    It's a joke, it's a joke, honest <smooch><smooch><smooch><smooch><smooch><smooch>
     
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  6. andytoprankin

    andytoprankin Well-Known Member

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    Interesting choice of final words, kc. ;)
     
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  7. kchorn

    kchorn Well-Known Member

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    Andy I have many scottish friends and work associates. I love the place. But in my experience there are no winners in a scottish indi discussion.

    If I'm with my friends there I might go for my favourite before getting the next round in:

    Why does the SNP object to independence for the Shetlands? Now that leads to a lively debate. <cheers>

    We have the same here in Spain with Catalunya. But although my spanish is pretty good I avoid debating that one - especially after Brexit. But seriously Barca in the Prem ??? It could happen :cheesy:
     
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  8. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    No - it's because they're being unfair, as usual. After all, Scotland lets an English team play in the Scottish League... :)

    We'd like to keep Celtic, but please reconsider the blight on humanity that is Rangers - you could do what we did and start them off in the bottom division. But you'd have to keep an eye on their financial shenanigans.:emoticon-0105-wink:
     
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  9. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    Can't see why - the SNP don't object to Independence for Shetland. If they really wanted to go - which is doubtful anyway - they'd have no trouble going. :)
     
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  10. andytoprankin

    andytoprankin Well-Known Member

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    A lot beyond my ken (not referring to Mr Jackett ;)). I'll duck from BB, but I agree with Aberdeen about his 'stronger together' argument. I understand that Scotland hasn't voted for a Tory government (for how long??) and keeps getting them, but the same could be said for most English cities. I love the Scots and Scotland, too, and the Welsh and their beautiful country. I'm a republican so it's not a traditional Unionist stance I take. I believe there is powerful history that unites us. I think similarly regarding the EU. Like or like not, we are Europeans. Better together. The more fractured we are, the easier we are to pick off.
    <diving for cover> ;)
     
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  11. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    English cities don't have their own devolved parliaments though...

    The 'stronger together' argument that only works one way? The Northern Irish and the Welsh are only now starting to realise what the Scots have known for decades - that everything they say or try to do in terms of the Union is shouted down by the larger 'partner'. The Union serves its larger partner to the detriment of the others, nothing more, nothing less.

    That powerful history being rooted in the Alien Act of 1705 - the Act which showed the utter contempt that Westminster had, & still has, for Scotland - and forced the creation of the Union.

    Easier to pick off when fractured? I think that the likes of Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland would disagree with that - thriving countries in their own right. And even the Faroe Isles are now going down that path, so why not Scotland?
     
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  12. kchorn

    kchorn Well-Known Member

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    Why not any random group of people at any random time that they think they have advantage?

    The truth is in my life time Scots have happily embedded themselves in England (and very welcome they are). They have had far greater representation at the top of government (very welcomed democracy) And despite what can now be seen as a false claim at the time of the referendum that oil would make Scotland rich unsurprisingly there was still a majority who wanted to stay.

    So my question would be - how often can a minority of people in any state hang the threat of independence over the majority? Any time a majority of the minority disagree on a major issue? Not sure that sounds very democratic.

    But as an Englishman I'm off this one.

    ps just one thought I'd not be against Rangers and Celtic having the opportunity to qualify (financially and according to the rules) for the Prem. But I wouldn't want to hear them whining when they fail to qualify for Europe and Hibs (my Scottish team :emoticon-0110-tongu) and Aberdeen qualify :emoticon-0142-happy Of course under the current Prem constitution that will never happen.
     
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  13. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    The sequence of Brexit followed the following equation: 36% = a majority in Parliament: A Majority = Referendum: Referendum = 52%-48%= winner takes all= everyone who calls for any other variation is held as, almost, treasonable. This sequence would only be possible in the UK. All other EU. countries have PR in some form. All have tried and trusted traditions on how to conduct referendums (apart from Germany which doesn't allow them). All have decentralized powers, what we would call federalized systems - with regional governments. The referendum showed up the shortcomings of the British political system. We cannot have such a first past the post system, combined with the extreme centralization on Westminster. We need devolution in all its forms - not just Scotland and Wales, but also the regions assemblies in England. It is absolutely ridiculous that in England nothing exists between Westminster and the County Council.
     
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  14. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    And in my lifetime many English have done the same up here - and are equally welcome, as are other nationalities who wish to make their homes here. That's just one of the arguments against Westminster rule - they are busily deporting families from here who they have already given permission to stay, in spite of the Scottish Government objections.

    Yes, the Scots have had representation at the top of government - but I'm not sure how that sits for the future. Thanks to EVEL, that's nigh on impossible now - so much for democracy, not to mention the "Union of equals" claim that was bandied around by the powers-that-be during the referendum campaign.

    I'm not sure I remember any 'official' claim that oil would make Scotland rich, although the MSM did belabour the point, presumably to foster an anti-SNP atmosphere, which is their modus operandi. The Yes group were in fact consistent with their claim that Scotland was financially capable of affording independence, with or without oil revenue, and that is still the case. It's been fairly well established that the majority vote to stay had very little to do with oil - the largest No voting bloc was the 65+, for whom pension security was the driving influence. No wonder that the Better Together group, by their own admission, lied their way through the entire campaign...

    Have been watching the Cadiz match on the box - a fairly close affair so far but not much in the way of goalmouth action. I don't know how big the crowd is, but they're making a fairly impressive amount of noise.
     
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  15. andytoprankin

    andytoprankin Well-Known Member

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    London has about the same population of Scotland and Wales combined. Maybe more. They voted to stay in Europe and generally vote for a Labour government. They don't have a devolved parliament from the rest of the U.K. Perhaps they should. They would be keen to stay in Europe even if carrot-crunchers don't want to.
    If the larger partner shouts down the Scots now, just try and see how this small country will cope on its own. I accept the relationship is unfair and the Scots and Welsh are not treated fairly. Nor is Northern England. I agree with Cologne that our system of governance is in major need of upheaval, which would hopefully address these imbalances.
    Our history is not limited to Acts passed three hundred years ago.
    I would carry on, but Matej and Seb want me to help them building their hydraulic robot arm. <yikes>
     
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  16. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    Very true - but that particular Act was preceded by around 500 years of regular, violent conflict, then followed by the subjugation it was so obviously intended to cause.
     
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  17. andytoprankin

    andytoprankin Well-Known Member

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    I totally accept that Westminster and various kings, queens, decision-makers, have over the years been nothing but ****heads to our neighbours. But they don't represent the majority of English people. When I talk to any of my Scottish or Welsh friends, I don't think I'm talking to a foreigner, and I hope that they never are. I value the fabulous Scots and wonderful Welsh. I am proud they are my compatriots.
     
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  18. kchorn

    kchorn Well-Known Member

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    2013: The Scottish government said its analysis of short-term forecasts of North Sea oil revenue showed that Scotland's potential tax take from oil and gas would equal between £41bn and £57bn by 2017-18, averaging out at £48bn over six years.

    It said the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development predicted oil prices could rise above a record level of $150 a barrel by 2020.

    Salmond said this would significantly underwrite Scotland's economy, proving that North Sea oil was going from "strength to strength".

    I'll comment in the non Watford thread that I've only just understood :emoticon-0136-giggl:emoticon-0136-giggl:emoticon-0136-giggl:emoticon-0136-giggl
     
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  19. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    Actually I don't think the majority of Scots are anti English - they just have an allergy against Tories, which I have as well. The plum in mouth archetypal Tory of the carrot crunching South, and midlands, just gets on their nerves - with Geordies, Scousers, Mancs etc. they don't have a problem.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
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  20. Bolton's Boots

    Bolton's Boots Well-Known Member

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    The words 'potential' and 'could' are important there - but I'll repeat, the oil issue was never the SNP, or the YES group's, selling point - those were the right to self-determination and the ability to stand alone financially without oil revenues. Which was particularly important due to Westminster's repeated contention that the oil was fast running out - five years from memory - even though they knew they were lying through their teeth.
     
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