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Off Topic Impact of Brexit on Inflation/Jobs

Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by JM Fan, Mar 22, 2017.

  1. DUNCAN DONUTS

    DUNCAN DONUTS SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR

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    I was on Holloway Road last week and white middle-class people that probably live in Islington were handing out flyers for a march in Central London to stay in the EU.
    They refuse to accept the result.
    Of course you are free to speak your mind but your opinions come across as quite condescending, and you probably genuinely think that Brexit voters are thick racists and remainers are wise and enlightened so feel it's your place to show us the light.
    I may be wrong but that's how many of your posts read to me.
     
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  2. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    Campaigning to overturn something is evidence of our democratic freedom, our freedom of speech in the face of the tyranny of the majority.

    I can only apologise if I'm being condescending, it's not my aim. And I've never said you're a thick racist so now you're putting words into my mouth. I only call thick racists thick and racist.

    I'm responding with the facts. I appreciate some of you don't want to know though, but as I said earlier, I would have thought if someone is coming into this thread they want to read counterpoints and different views. It's not about "enlightening" - I don't see anyone changing their mind so that would obviously be futile. However, discussing these things is inevitably about correcting mistaken assumptions and beliefs, highlighting false facts and bringing new information to the table.

    Clearly I was wrong, people want to stay with their own knowledge and only want to have their own views verified in an echo chamber. I'm sorry about that, I misjudged the thread.

    So if you want to discuss Brexit and politics, I'm all for it. However, I won't be told to keep my mouth shut because I'm patronising by raising matters which don't accord with Brexiter dogma. If people don't want to hear it and want to stay narrow minded, I don't mind if they don't reply. Indeed I'd prefer it if they didn't because the arrogance and dictatorial attitude of posts like Canario's earlier is exactly the sort of anti-democratic, fingers-in-ears attitude that concerned people about the EU itself.
     
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  3. johnnywarksmoustache

    johnnywarksmoustache Well-Known Member

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    I hope you enjoyed the nice weather on your remoaner EU protest march yesterday mate! <ok>
     
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  4. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    <laugh>

    Don't worry I'm not THAT passionate about staying. We actually have to leave, it was voted for so I don't see the point of campaigning against it (though I'll fight to the death their right to do so...) I just separately reserve my right to flag why it was a bad decision on every level, annoying as I know some people find that <ok>
     
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  5. johnnywarksmoustache

    johnnywarksmoustache Well-Known Member

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    Fair play to you Rob, there is no doubting that you have firmly held beliefs on one side of the argument although they are the polar opposite to mine! I just don't buy this defeatist attitude that we as a country can only survive as part of a bigger entity. I believe very much in democracy being as local as possible and that my vote actually counts towards something. This is a great opportunity for us as a nation to be a truly global player and not curtailed by politicians in a far away place that we didn't vote for. We must grasp this new freedom and make it work as our future prosperity and well being depends upon it.
     
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  6. canary-dave

    canary-dave Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post JWM <applause>
     
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  7. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    I actually think then we're arguing two sides of the same page.

    I'm in no way defeatist (far from it - as Duncan alludes to above, the people campaigning against Brexit in London will likely still be the winners in any post-Brexit UK). I do think it is a tragic decision for our most vulnerable though, and I think the evdiecne for that is overwhelming. I've got some sympathy for the "well they've always been ****ed" response, but it doesn't stack up with my personal morals.

    As for being curtailed by politicians we didn't vote for - again I don't disagree. But then look at our system. You only vote, at best, for your local MP (for which in more than half of seats there is barely any chance of change, so your vote feels worthless to many). We have an unelected House of Lords who seriously could have disrupted Brexit! Our Prime Minister didn't get voted on at all!

    At least the legislature politicians in Brussels were directly voted by us and each vote counted. The executive is merely reflective of our own democracy, so it's no worse.

    That's why I think the, far from perfect, Brussels system is so much better than our excuse for "democracy".

    If there's one thing good to come from Brexit it will be massively reforming our system (starting with the House of Lords), but I wonder whether that's a pipe dream - the establishment are more firmly gripping power than ever.

    That, and the globalised integrated world we live in, is why we will have no more freedom than we had before, so there really isn't any meaningful opportunity to speak of.
     
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  8. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    Ultimately, though, the EU while not perfect protected individuals, equality and human rights better than any other government in history.

    I took my granddad to lunch yesterday. 90 years old. He was an industrial relations expert for various companies and sat on the Employment Appeals Tribunal. He sang the praises of the EU - how women's role has now changed in the workplace, equal pay for equal work and recognition of worker rights (his specialism obviously). All EU stuff. They've truly transformed the lives of ordinary individuals with these protections, but it's very difficult for individuals to see it now, to imagine what life in the 50s and 60s was like.

    So while as an industrial relations expert he has some sympathy for Corbynite complaints about the EU being a capitalist stalwart (which in many ways it is) he felt that it's strength has been in helping capitalism while defending individuals. Unfortunately, that balance means those on the left attack its capitalism, on the right its employment protections and the liberals are uncomfortable with its prescriptive controls. Each failing to see the imperfect pragmatism as better than any of the extremes.

    He also fought right at the end of the war. Didn't see much action but was part of the peace keeping force in Germany afterwards. He said the devastation was horrific, he wouldn't wish it on anybody and he wouldn't hear anybody who suggested the EU hasn't been a massive peacekeeping force for good. He said they didn't see the world before, the ugly version of nationalist sentiment and xenophobia. <ok>
     
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  9. WEIGHTY CRIMSON PLUM

    WEIGHTY CRIMSON PLUM Well-Known Member

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    I believe that woman's rights along with workers rights is more down to common sense within society and would have happened without the EU.
     
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  10. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    Any basis for that belief? Bearing in mind the fierce opposition in UK Parliament to it and the recent huge undermining of workers' rights by the Tory Gov, as well as the threats to create a tax haven
     
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  11. WEIGHTY CRIMSON PLUM

    WEIGHTY CRIMSON PLUM Well-Known Member

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    Nope..just my belief timescale maybe would have been different I suppose......as I said earlier you can never know what would have happened if things happened differently....maybe we would have been better off never being in the EU we will never know.
     
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  12. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    So no basis. Never knowing for sure does not mean we can't be pretty certain. People always seem to get that confused - when they don't want to accept something is probable, they'll point to the unlikely scenario as still being a possibility.

    It's basically the argument anti-evolutionary theorists follow. Oh well we can't know for sure that Darwin was right which means that it's reasonable to disbelieve him. Well no, not really when you look at the overwhelming weight of evidence.

    We can be pretty certain that the many fantastic things the EU has brought in would not have happened or, even if they had, they wouldn't have happened nearly as quickly.

    You only have to look at the US and its employment protections to realise that. And the idea that we should rescue our economy by becoming a low tax haven for wealthy people.
     
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  13. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    Having followed this discussion for some time, I have to agree with Rob about worker's rights. Many who voted for Brexit will face a major deterioration of worker's rights when EU legislation is repealed, including the advances for women in recent years. Many other benefits will go as well, hurting many of the vulnerable who voted for Brexit. When all of that is combined with the economic consequences which will follow actual Brexit, the howls of pain from those who wanted change could be quite severe. It won't hurt me that much, but those in more vulnerable positions could feel deep regret about what they have brought upon themselves.
     
    #113
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  14. DUNCAN DONUTS

    DUNCAN DONUTS SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR

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    In my chosen profession as a casino worker I was earning more in 2001 than the East Europeans are paid in 2017 for doing the same job.
    Waves of redundancies destroyed the unions put in place as I watched nearly all of my colleagues replaced by cheaper workers under the guise of restructuring.

    There are millions of people employed on zero hour contracts competing with migrant workers now and that is directly because of being part of the EU.
     
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  15. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    How are zero hour contracts due to being in the EU? Many EU countries ban them and it was our gov who apparently contributed to stopping them being banned under EU law.

    They're used by the Tories (and Labour tbf, but less so) to help the unemployment figures. They're always on the rise after recessions as they help employers by being flexible. So if anything it's out soon to be key trading partner the US who caused them with their starting the 2008 financial crisis
     
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    Last edited: Mar 26, 2017
  16. DUNCAN DONUTS

    DUNCAN DONUTS SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR

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    Employers have people from countries like Poland Lithuania Romania etc where minimum wage is 4 or 5 times what they would receive back home so they take these people on and drop them when they don't need them.
    If the job market is saturated with migrant workers then employers can drive down wages and not bother taking people on full time.
    You maybe haven't experienced this first hand as you work in the legal profession and I would imagine that a law graduate from Latvia for example can only practice Latvian law unless they study and learn UK law but plumbers builders etc can undercut their British competitors.
     
    #116
  17. DUNCAN DONUTS

    DUNCAN DONUTS SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR

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    Can Americans simply fly to England and start working?
    Can I fly to USA China Australia and start work?
    No I would need a green card or temporary work Visa if the country accepted me.
    Yet people from all over Europe can just show up and start working here.
    I have never met an Englishman that went the other way and started working in Poland it just doesn't happen.
    All of the low skilled summer jobs and factory jobs taken up by school leavers that either can't afford or don't want to study are hoovered up by migrant workers.
    You may think it's fantastic but others don't.
     
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  18. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    That's immigration though, not zero hours contracts.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-hours-contracts-rights-warning-a7565761.html

    I get the issues people have with immigration, but equally people in this country complain when food is too expensive or the plumber costs a fortune. So that's a break even thing, but I do accept people perceive a competition. I'm not sure there always is competition though (there are conflicting studies) for example in construction, companies simply cannot find skilled UK workers prepared to do some of the grimier tasks.

    I never said it was fantastic - that's you putting words into my mouth. There's no easy solution to the problems with immigration though, perceived and real, I'll grant you. And no-one seems absolutely sure whether immigration is actually negative or positive - I think it's probably a real mixture.
     
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  19. DUNCAN DONUTS

    DUNCAN DONUTS SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR

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    I worked at Aspall cider last year for a few months through an agency as a forklift driver.
    Paid about £9 hr I was one of 4 English workers on the entire site .
    Mainly Portugese after about 3 months I was replaced by a Portugese guy .
    4 out of about 35 staff of course all the office staff and managers were English.
    They had a token black guy and a few women but there aren't any quotas for white Englishmen so they eradicated them.
    And this is in rural Suffolk.
    Up to about 10 years ago and going back to the 1700s when the Orchard and factory started I would Imagine that it was a major employer for the local community not random economic migrants from Thetford and Ipswich.
    Even 50% would be a step in the right direction.
     
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  20. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I can see how that's massively frustrating <ok>

    The only issue is I don't see leaving the EU helping that. Tories have already eroded employment protections for short term workers and these employers are lobbying hard (and will probably succeed) to keep access to cheaper labour - it will be from India, Pakistan or Africa or similar if it's not Eastern Europe
     
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