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Off Topic Political Debate

Discussion in 'Watford' started by Leo, Aug 31, 2014.

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  1. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    It is easier to affect population numbers by control of the vast numbers wanting to reside in the UK due to our relative financial success compare to most other European countries. I cannot understand why, in any way, some consider it unreasonable for the UK to want to sort out this unique problem. Germany may have more accepted more migrants but it is desperate for the extra manpower for its economy.

    China's bad experience at state control of birth control ensures no other country would repeat the experience, its a non starter.
     
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  2. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    OK - well hopefully he will take note and we will all try to move to friendlier posting. I am aware that we have not been as "nice" recently as would be good - my only thought is we seem to have a much better board than many others. You have to remember that Cologne has some pretty extreme views himself so this will colour how he sees others views and even their thinking - if we can let us try to assume each comment is meant in as best a way possible.
     
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  3. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Can't disagree with that - I believe there is still a very strong element in this country with views against a whole host of minorities.
     
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  4. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    There are no votes in population control - Cologne told me that in talking about Green policy a while back. He is right of course.
     
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  5. andytoprankin

    andytoprankin Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure you're right. Which is terrifically saddening and another indictment of what we claim is 'democracy' and that it is best for our people.
     
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  6. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    The numbers tell the story. Why would the EU young not want to escape 40-50% unemployment rates. Even in France the general unemployment rate is rising again to above 10%, over twice the UK rate.
     
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  7. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Yes but in making a point you overstate it. The numbers of migrants against the population of Europe is tiny. I am sure most people in Europe are simply looking forward to when better times return.
    The UK has been a magnet in recent years but these things tend to have cycles and left alone I beleive migration would have ceased to be a major issue with a few years.
    All of that is irrelevant though - it is not how things are that is important, it is about how people perceive things are. For better or worse an awful lot of people in the UK saw migrants as such a large issue that they were prepared to take us out of the EU because of it. We have to accept that as a fact - however unfortunate and move on.
     
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  8. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I think our democracy is over-valued. The real difference any elected government makes is minimal.
    If I were world leader I would implement China's one child policy worldwide until the population fell towards one to two billion. I would then expect to be able to create a world free of famine and poverty, where the Earth was respected and green was the flavour.

    - oh and Watford win most of their games
     
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  9. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    One of the biggest problems is that Britain has no effective registration system of people and population, and when opportunists like Ukip claim that there are so many Rumanian or Polish people in the UK. there is no effective counter to this. They have found out that the average Ukip supporter believes the number of Rumanians in the UK. to be 10 times larger than it actually is. The UK. has the 4th highest population density in Europe - if you then divide this up into regions and say that England then has the highest then you can do so, but it is only manipulating figures - any other country can do the same about its internal regions. The 'state' in the EU. with the highest population density is NRW (Nordrheinwestfalen) - are we crying about it ? The percentage of the UK. population which has come from the EU. is not high - just above the European average. Germany, France, Luxemburg, Belgium, The Netherlands, Switzerland all have higher percentages in this. I agree that unrestricted movement can lead to a strain on resources in some areas, and serious depopulation in others - the way to counter that is to work together with our partners to help raise living standards in Eastern Europe to levels which will give people an incentive to stay - and, on the other hand, to control the semi legal work agencies which are attracting people with imaginary jobs.
     
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  10. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    You cannot compare differentiating between Scotland and England as looking at NRW as part of Germany. Scotland voted remain - it is not densely populated. England voted leave - it is densely populated. I do not claim that this fact alone was responsible for the voting pattern but to ignore it is to miss the point.
    We have also discussed before that you overlook the "island" effect. Mainland Europe has had populations move all over it for thousands of years. The UK is geographically isolated - we are not like Europe and have a different perspective. You can argue all you like Cologne about what SHOULD be but it is what IS that counts. England voted leave - immigration was a major component in that. The point is that now we have to come to terms with it.
    I have no idea where you would get the statistics you quote - they seem fanciful to me. Remember though that at its peak UKIP only got 4 million voters - Leave got 17million so you cannot blame everything on UKIP.
     
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  11. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, remainers like Cologne need to move on, it is a waste of time and effort to continually go over old ground. Many former Labour voters supported leave because the Labour Party were particularly guilty of refusing to properly discuss the effects of immigration. People like Diane Abbott still do not accept the views of traditional supporters, the deniers will be punished in the upcoming bi-elections.
     
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  12. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I do not see why remainers need to move on. We will simply be left behind. I would not expect you as a Tory to become a Labour supporter if they won an election. We hold firmly to our beliefs that brexit is harmful to the UK.
    The only thing I would agree on though is that once we have left the EU we can only argue about what is the best possible path forwards having left the best of all paths behind.
     
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  13. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    The UK has been told it will have to relax its immigration rules for Australians if it wants a free trade deal with Canberra. Alexander Downer, Australia's high commissioner to the UK, said the country would want better access for business people working in the UK before reaching a post-Brexit deal.

    This seems to be a common theme. We heard it in the week from India and now Australia.
     
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  14. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    I think all countries will make demands when it comes to conducting trade deals. Australia has pretty stringent immigration rules of its own so if it opens that as a bargaining point I doubt the UK would struggle. Brexiters donot seem to have factored in these issues - but there again brexit was just a broad church of "let's get out of the EU" as the Press have been bleating on about for years - there was no plan and no destination
     
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  15. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Remainers will have to move on from the result because they lost. Hopefully the minor challenges will soon be overcome so the government can follow the clear instruction from the people to leave the EU. Thankfully the main remainers in the mix, May and Hammond, have certainly moved on.
     
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  16. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    As you say Leo, there was no plan. Athough there was a referendum over the general idea of Brexit, there is no consensus about Nexit ie. what should follow. The Brexiters have just taken the result as a mandate for creating a bargain basement, low tax, low wage 'alternative' to Europe. A future which could see us as some kind of off shore version of Singapore on the one hand, or having some kind of mini TTIP arrangement with Trump - or possibly both. Is this what the people voted for. Millions of people voted on the issue of immigration, based on half facts, exagerations and plain lies - we've seen it all before, it's called scapegoating. We've seen the same procedure and propaganda used in Fascist regimes in the past (though admittedly with more drastic results) - would you have said to the opponents of the Nazis that they should just accept it and move on ? Maybe, once Britain is clear of the EU. has 'control of its borders', they will run out of scapegoats. Always someone else is at fault, whether the EU., immigrants, Scotland, the loony left, the unions. Is it the fault of the EU. that Britain has such a high immigrant population ? Is it their fault that Britain was the first country to open its arms to Eastern European immigration in the 90s ? At a time when Germany favoured a more phased approach.
     
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  17. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    All they are requesting is be part the Tier 2 visa system which the UK already operates. It allows for skilled workers with a certificate of sponsorship from a licensed sponsor. The UK will continue to allow much needed skills when not available already in the country.
     
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  18. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is the fault of the EU why we have an immigration problem along with very poor governance by the Labour Party where they opened the floodgates, making poor judgements on the UK'a attraction to Eastern Europeans. Low corporation taxation is extremely good for attracting investment therefore raising the tax take. Ireland has been extremely efficient in this respect which is why the French and Germans try to bully them to stop the practice. Once the UK is out of the EU it will be free to increase inward investment, even more, by being business friendly. The UK will remain the number one location for inward investment, especially from the US.
     
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  19. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    It depends what you mean by "move on". We will have to live in the real world - yes. Once Article 50 is triggered I believe there is no going back. At that time all that can be done is to work out what of the ways forward are best for the UK.
    17 million pro; 16 million anti out of a population of 65 million is clear - but not strong. However the way the referendum was set up a single vote could have done the damage. May is forced to do the job she undertook whether she likes it or not. I do not understand how you cannot see that for us remainers it is like a Tory living in a country governed by Corbyn. You have to accept an election result but do you expect the losers to be happy? It would be nice if you were able to say something like " I know it is hard and horrible for remainers but the vote is over so the only way forward is to make the best of it?" Instead you appear to be happy that remainers are not. Why?
     
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  20. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Not only was there no plan but brexiters never really considered WHO was to carry out the no-plan. It has fallen to the government which opposed brexit - what a strange state of affairs.
    No I do not agree with the bargain basement argument. May will try to get a zero or low tariff trade deal that does not involve us paying the equivalent of single market access nor will the UK be subject to immigration in an uncontrolled manner. The low tax (Corporation Tax) statement was only used to say that if the EU play nasty hard ball the UK will look at an alternative strategy. Do not knock Singapore anyway.
    The rest is history. Nobody can tell what people really voted for - only that they voted to Leave. The campaign and the process and the structure of the referendum were all rubbish - but it is history.
    Talk of scapegoats is fine but not what brexiters are saying. They have a positive view and believe the UK will be better off trading alone internationally - I wish I shared their confidence.
     
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  21. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    It is obvious that remainers were not happy with the result a reaction which they are completely entitled to. The problem I have is the attempts to undermine parliament' s clear decision to put the issue directly to the people in the form of a referendum. There is no reason to deny or challenge the result so all, leave and remain, should now unite to get the best possible deal for all. This is what I mean by 'move on'. I have lived happily under several Labour government without denying their right to govern, I respect democracy.
     
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