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Off Topic Political Debate

Discussion in 'Watford' started by Leo, Aug 31, 2014.

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  1. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    The EU policy of uncontrolled movement is a poor one. The EU is too diverse for such a policy. In a sensible EU they would have seen and legislated for controlled movement during a transition phase lasting perhaps 20 years while the East moved closer to the West in terms of economic performance. Uncontrolled movement was only sensible while the EU was 12.
    In a world where the rules are made in he UK for the UK by the UK corporation tax and other tax rates should be set at whatever rates are deemed in the best interest of the UK alone.
    How successful we will be - time will tell
     
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  2. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Disagree, the majority of leave voters had firm views on why they voted that way. Most politicians, remain and leave, made it clear a leave vote would mean being outside of the internal market. It was also made clear that sovereignty and the wish to trade worldwide would disqualify the UK from being part of the customs union. 17.5 million voters cannot be dismissed as lacking information or biased by the nasty press.
     
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  3. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    OK - accept that. However a referendum is not a tool in which the UK is well tried and trusted. While there is any chance of reversing the result - by a second referendum if need be surely you cannot blame remainers for trying - it is too important to just say oh dear we lost let's move on. I bet Farage would have tried for a second referendum had he lost 52-48. You will probably have your way by 31st March so be patient.
     
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  4. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    I respect democracy as well but I was not asked. Nearly 3 million other British citizens living overseas were also, not asked, although we are very much affected by the result. So, because I was 'not asked' (disenfranchised if you prefer), I am not obliged to accept the result. It is not the fact that those at home voted for Brexit which is difficult to accept, but rather their reasons for doing so, the character of the campaign, and the fact that all of this is known abroad ie. they voted on immigration. They did it based on misinformation and with the help of posters and propaganda more suited to the Third Reich than to a modern democracy. They did all this in the full view of the World and dragged Britain's international image through the dirt in the process - so much so that the only International support for Brexit came from Trump and Putin - I feel ashamed, and I have to live with that shame every day here in Germany, where I would prefer to be proud of my country.
     
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  5. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    The reason Brexit was successful, in part, was the ridicules attitude taken by Merkel and others that refused to give Cameron any reasonable concession on immigration. As Leo pointed out there should have been facility to intervene in free movement where it created major unforeseen problems.

    Give it a few years and the UK will be a place to be proud of. Your concerns should be concentrated on the mounting problems in the EU.
     
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  6. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    My concern is with the mounting problems at Bournemouth for the next 2 hours.
     
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  7. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Believe in Brexit and Watford!!!! 1-0
     
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  8. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    :)
     
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  9. Toby

    Toby GC's Life Coach

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    It's recently been admitted by someone in the Tory administration that they had plenty of ways of slowing down immigration to the country, as plenty other EU nations have done, they just chose not to. This whole Brexit process has been pure manipulation from a handful of powerful people, just so they can make themselves even richer.

    The brainwashing has worked so well proud Brexiters are treating it like a World Cup win, having no actual idea of how it will benefit them but happy to rub it in the faces of the 'losers'. They know that if the result was the other way this would never have stopped, we would have had Farage yapping away on the BBC constantly until they had another referendum, yet we have no choice now, we will permanently be stuck with a false result, obtained through lies and manipulation.

    I'm not too concerned as I have access to French passport and, especially nowadays, very little affinity with the country I was born in and spent all my adult life in. The UK can rot for all I care, this government does not represent me and I doubt ever will, and the people have voiced their collective opinion and it stinks of selfishness and hatred of the other.
     
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  10. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    Bit strong - but in character. My son decided Australia was for him - don't blame him. I'm not sure I accept the "plenty of ways of slowing immigration" argument. Seems a bit like a conspiracy theory to me and I am not hot on those. Also it would imply some degree of government competence which I have not seen for more than 10 years at least. I prefer to think the government was hopeless and incompetent and we were walked into brexit by a shambolic referendum and a Eu hostile press.
     
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  11. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    Please kindly explain the 'plenty of ways of slowing immigration' without leaving? They do not exist. This government represents the majority view of the British electorate. It has been quite impressive the way the Tory party has quickly united the two factions within its government. Unfortunately it highlights the growing rifts within Her Majesty's opposition party.
     
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  12. Toby

    Toby GC's Life Coach

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    Wish I could find the article...

    Basically it explained that other EU countries have measures in place to avoid people moving over without contributing. In France for example it's nearly impossible to come over and claim benefits, you need a Secu number, which takes months, and a whole load of paperwork to prove you've worked in your country of origin. There were several other examples of rules over EU nations were allowed to use...

    You say you don't believe in conspiracies, but:

    I quoted the Murdoch example ages ago that OFH linked to the other day, so his motives were clear (Along with giving himself free reign in the UK, no pesky EU laws to cramp his ambitions). He can now take full control of Sky, continue to pull the strings in Number 10 and keep the Tories in power by constantly smearing the other parties.

    UKIP were Russia-funded, and Putin is glad Brexit happened, Farage will now have his EU pension paid for by the taxpayer for the rest of his life so his money is made (He also applied for a German passport after the referendum https://skwawkbox.org/2016/12/31/heres-the-address-farage-used-for-his-german-passport-application/ )

    Aaron Banks is a racist, pure and simple. He also stands to make lots of money from it.

    The other politicians were opportunists, like Boris and Gove, they just jumped in because they thought it would help their careers.

    The list goes on...

    Going to stop rambling now, Bournemouth just scored and I missed it.

    I'm not going to post on these politics threads anymore, I seem to cause issues, have fun all.
     
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  13. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    OK - I understand - yes Cologne has said similar things about I think Germany and Switzerland. However I think it is just that we do not have their type of administrative systems not that we deliberately tried not to control immigration (which is what I thought you meant)

    Totally agree here - the media /press / the foreign rich barons have hated our membership of the EU for decades.

    UKIP and Farage are not worth the ink to comment on.

    Agree with all of that too.

    Please continue posting - you raise but do not cause issues. We do not have to agree in order for a debate to be good - in fact quite the reverse. Although I agreed with a lot of this. My comment on "strong" referred to your "the UK can rot for all I care" - which I don't believe you really mean because I think you care a lot.

    - darn - I hoped we were going to hold on. One more needed. Come on Watford
     
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  14. colognehornet

    colognehornet Well-Known Member

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    Like you I don't think Britain has deliberately tried to not slow down immigration, but I think that a number of factors are at play. A straightforward manufacturing society such as Germany can regulate immigration whereas the attraction of Britain is that people think the chances of semi legal, casual, employment are higher there - that is more difficult to regulate unless you focus on the work agencies operating on the edges of the system. In Germany everybody has to have a bank account there - otherwise there is no money, simple as that. Even unemployed people get their payments through direct bank transfer (no dole cheques here !), and to get a bank account means having the 'Anmeldebestätigung', the form which says you have registered your address at the local town hall. All of this has a filtering affect which doesn't happen in the UK. People think they can just go there and disappear. The other aspect unique to the UK. is that high immigration has come on the top of very high deindustrialization. This had depopulated Britain's towns to be later refilled by immigrants - the same process has not happened in Germany. When you see rows and rows of terraced houses in Sheffield (or wherever) full of immigrants - and then think 'what happened to the original inhabitants of these houses ?' then the focus moves away from the immigrants themselves and more to the social upheavals which Britain has experienced over the last 30 years. But, I agree that Labour has not faced up to this problem - nobody likes to live in communities which are constantly changing, whether through Ghettoization or gentrification.
     
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  15. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    It is strange that in a country generally ahead on banking we are behind on these aspects. Why on earth do we not insist on paying benefits etc only through direct bank transfer?
     
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  16. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    There are many things that we could have done to deter people from getting onto the benefits system as posters have shown, but it was not done, just the wrong folk such as the disabled had their lives made much harder. As Toby said, try to get onto the system here and you will wait so long that you will be eligible to be deported. Two years for me to get health cover, while others have waited longer. The current Prime Minister was in charge and failed totally to do simple things that would have resolved the immigration issues, so why should I believe that she is competent enough to negotiate an agreement that will look after the whole population?
     
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  17. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    I think everyone agrees that much stricter systems need to be employed in the UK to make it difficult or impossible for illegal migrants to be sustained. Maybe there is middle ground between the UK laxness and the French obsession with paperwork. I'm not sure the government has a large enough majority to obtain wholesale changes, the liberals would scream 'big brother' and human rights etc.
     
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  18. Toby

    Toby GC's Life Coach

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    There were ways to curb immigration, as is done in other countries. Nothing prevented the government from doing so, and they didn't, ergo they chose not to.

    Same with banning agencies from recruiting overseas, sorting out deals with local temporary employers in regards to the unemployed, building new council homes to take the burden of paying housing benefits to private landlords off the state/improve the housing situation.

    Still waiting on any Brexiter to give me any actual advantage we will gain. All this sovereignty and free trade deal stuff is just waffle, no one has managed to say 'After Brexit, everyone will....' and add anything positive on how it will affect the life of UK citizens. Higher wages? Nope, we could have been paid more before, Brexit won't make that happen. Cheaper housing? Nope. Cheaper cost of living? Nope. Cheaper holidays? Nope.

    Was just answering my point about the government choosing not to intervene. Done now.
     
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  19. oldfrenchhorn

    oldfrenchhorn Well-Known Member
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    You are falling into the trap of Farage speak. No one who is an illegal migrant has the right to stay in the UK. If they are illegal they cannot claim anything or else when they tried they would be deported. That is the situation now as it has been for years. The fact that it is estimated that there are over a million illegals, who might not be migrants at all, but students who have stayed on after their courses have finished, shows up the laxity of the UK government, under the watch of the PM, to try and get to grips with the perceived problem. It also shows up what the UK Border Force have been saying for months, that they are under resourced to do a proper job and despite catching some who attempt to enter the country, far more still get in.
     
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  20. superhorns

    superhorns Well-Known Member

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    There are very few checks for NHS treatment. The border agency is not fit for purpose, they are certainly underfunded. When illegals are caught they are released then asked to report to a police station, which of course they never turn up. Because paperwork is minimal forged passports and other documents open too many doors. Once the UK leaves a very strict tightening of the system is required. Because of the faulty encouragement of multi cultural societies within the UK it is quite easy to hide illegals for many years. The number of illegals that are actually deported is depressingly small, we need a much larger Tory majority to give some more backbone to the government.
     
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