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The Politics Thread

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by Wandering Yid, Feb 9, 2016.

  1. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    The thing that got me was that most of the places that were most anti-immigration basically didn't have any.
    Sunderland's demographics show virtually no non-UK and Ireland immigrants from the EU, for example.
    http://localstats.co.uk/census-demographics/england/north-east/sunderland
     
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  2. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    Yet she was the one who created the single market, which unlocked plenty of EU cash.

    That's the point that the Thatcher comparisons is content to continue missing: in one speech Theresa May dismantled a load-bearing pillar of Thatcher's legacy - so the only way for The Sun, Mail, Express et al could deny this is to turn the jingoistic triumphalism up to eleven and rely on their readership's lack of interest to do some actual research.
     
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  3. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    Better not get started on that whole Winston Churchill European Convention on Human Rights thing, eh?
     
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  4. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    There was a report on the BBC news a couple of weeks back from Ebbw Vale, and the logic some of the people were giving for voting Leave was facepalm-worthy stuff.

    First there was the Royston Vasey-level stuff like one person who genuinely said that the town already had a road so didn't need a second road built with EU funding - even though as anyone who has had to drive to rural Wales, something which is necessary in a lot of places thanks to Doctor Beeching, is fully aware that an actual road rather than a single-lane country road with some paint down the middle is a godsend.

    Secondly, and more tellingly, there were complaints that the lion's share of EU funding was going to Cardiff, yet they somehow didn't consider a large part of the reason why is because a sizable number of people travel from Ebbw Vale to work in...Cardiff! And to make that decision look more ill-informed, guess who funded the railway line that connects Ebbw Vale to Cardiff? That's right, the EU!

    I've seen the suggestion put forth that some people voted Leave as they feel they had been shat on by the government, and while in the case of communities that have been consigned to the scrapheap due to traditional industries being closed down and most people living there having to commute a long distance to find work, for example after the Birkenhead shipyard was closed down the locals now find themselves having to commute to Manchester for work, there is a disconnect between that and wanting to leave the EU. That's like missing your bus to work one morning and deciding the only course of action left to take is to set your neighbour's house on fire.
     
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  5. NSIS

    NSIS Well-Known Member

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    One day, when the fallout from what they've done really bites their stupid arses, many of these idiots are going to have a 'WTF have we done' moment.

    However, some are just so dense, they'll just look for another scapegoat.
     
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  6. Wandering Yid

    Wandering Yid Well-Known Member

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    please log in to view this image
     
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  7. NSIS

    NSIS Well-Known Member

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    Meaningless.

    What people say in a survey and what they do at the polling booth are two different things. Especally as there are so many closet bigots around who would never actually admit it publicly.

    If it's so unimportant, then perhaps May should drop her absolute insistence that there be an end to free movement and concentrate on what's really of concern?
     
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  8. Wandering Yid

    Wandering Yid Well-Known Member

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    It's second in the list, not "so unimportant", but just disproving your assertion that it was "the major factor". This does not even take into account that "favours immigration control" is not equal to "racist bigot". I'm in favour of greater control over immigration because I want a system which is less discriminatory against 90% of the world's population (mixed-race, mixed-wealth) and less preferential to the 10% from the world's wealthiest and whitest continent.

    If anyone wants to come up with any kind of evidence which shows that Brexit voters are predominantly racists or 'closet bigots' then I'm all ears. What I'm less likely to accept are sweeping statements based on your own personal prejudices and misconceptions, which have been fueled by the biases of 'liberal' politicians and media outlets.
     
    #2488
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  9. littleDinosaurLuke

    littleDinosaurLuke Well-Known Member

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    I think it would be naive to believe that the Brexit vote wasn't swayed decisively by a mixture of jingoism (those who believe Britain still has an empire and is being held back by these inferior European nations) and xenophobia (those who have a dislike and/or mistrust of anybody foreign). It would be nice to think that the leave vote was based and a thorough analysis and evaluation of the social, economic, legal and other consequences of coming out of the EU, but it wasn't was it?
     
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  10. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    Trump gets inaugurated, and my boiler packs in as soon as he's finished.

    Coincidence? I'm trying really hard to think not...
     
    #2490
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  11. NSIS

    NSIS Well-Known Member

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    I'll repeat. If it's such a minor point, why is it one of May's non negotiable starting points for negotiations?

    Obviously, there is no absolute way to prove that jingoism and xenophobia won the day, but subsequent televised evidence would strongly suggest that it did.
     
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  12. NSIS

    NSIS Well-Known Member

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    Of course, it wasn't.
     
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  13. redwhiteandermblue

    redwhiteandermblue Well-Known Member

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    The world’s second biggest democracy celebrates the voice of the people by peacefully transferring power to the candidate who received 2 1/2 million fewer votes than his opponent.
     
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  14. Wandering Yid

    Wandering Yid Well-Known Member

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    I'll repeat, immigration played a significant role, but was not "the major factor".

    As I said if anyone has any substantive evidence that Brexiteers are predominantly racist I'd love to see it, if not I'd suggest it makes you look foolish to keep claiming so.

    I'd also love to know what you consider to be "televised evidence"?
     
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  15. deedub93

    deedub93 Well-Known Member

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    I think people voted for change. They didn't like Cameron, they didn't like Corbyn, they didn't like Tim, nice but dim whatever his name is. The didn't like the EU and all that goes with it, Junkers, Tusk etc. It was an anti establishment vote. Voters said that they were unhappy with the status quo.

    If Cameron, Corbyn and Tim had stood up for Brexit, and Junkers and Tusk had said if we didnt vote leave they would try and have us kicked out anyway, the British people would have responded with a resounding Remain Vote.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 21, 2017
  16. Wandering Yid

    Wandering Yid Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't it? Do you have a source for that?

    As far as I can tell the voters in the referendum can be divided into equal quadrants: Informed leavers, informed remainers, uninformed leavers, uninformed remainers.

    Evidence for the above not required apparently, but it's not how the media have portrayed it so it's probably not true...
     
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  17. Wandering Yid

    Wandering Yid Well-Known Member

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    By the way, I'd assert that ALL remainers are racist, because by definition they favour a racially discriminatory immigration system. You don't hear that perspective much on BBC or C4 though so it's probably bullshit...
     
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  18. NSIS

    NSIS Well-Known Member

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    There have been numerous interviews with people who voted leave citing immigration as the main reason. Cameron tried to address the matter in his negotiations in his last trip to Brussels before the referendum. He knew it was a major factor.

    There is almost zero doubt that old bigots, like this one, were the deciding factor in the decision to leave. And there are thousands like him!...

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-muslims_uk_576e558ce4b08d2c563937ff
     
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  19. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    The ignorance of many voters is appalling. This is the great flaw with democracy: The stupid are groomed by the greedy.
     
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  20. redwhiteandermblue

    redwhiteandermblue Well-Known Member

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    Another flaw which struck me recently was that I was the only one of four educationally privileged people in a conversation who’d gone to any school that had a typical cross section of Americans (and only one, I should add). Hillary Clinton may never have addressed working class Americans because she and other Democratic apparatchiks may never have gotten to know any. Republican lite Democrats still have a vague conception of the poor and understand they’re supposed to do something for them, albeit in a condescending way. What they don’t know about are one and two parent households just barely getting by, who feel neglected and angry because nobody seems interested in speaking for them. Trump had as far as I know exactly one ad addressed to this demographic. But it was well-pitched*, and probably won him millions of votes, as it was one more than Hillary had. The Republican hate machine draws a considerable number in by sounding mad as hell, which they frequently are and have good reason to be. Could we as a society be getting even more segregated by class?

    * if laughably dishonest. A pickup truck commercial type proposed that Trump was in favor of working people because "they made him what he is." Well, yes, the money he saved by stiffing them in nine bankruptcies may have been a crucial factor in his success. The bankruptcy laws were (scandalously) changed some time ago so that banks took priority over workers in bankruptcy payouts. So bankruptcies end up being a way of redistributing assets away from the have nots.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 21, 2017

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