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Postecoglou & Lange (& Paratici) Watch

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by Dier Hard, Apr 19, 2021.

?

Next gaffer, who's your preference?

  1. Arne Slot

  2. Ruben Amorim

  3. Luis Enrique

  4. Ange Postocoglou

  5. Brendan Rodgers

  6. Graham Potter

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  1. The Huddlefro

    The Huddlefro Well-Known Member

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    That’s where the qualitative aspect of scouting and analysis comes in. You can look at a team built around an older high quality player where others do the running for them and know that it’s the setup while watching the team. So the running stats become less important when judging a player like that, for example.

    You can never rely just on data or the eye test for player analysis. Scouting is expensive and time consuming so you use data to help filter players and then take on the task of having a scout watching them extensively over video and preferably in person too, to qualify that data and form a proper, informed opinion on that player. It has to be both or it’s not working.
     
    #5801
  2. The RDBD

    The RDBD Well-Known Member

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    What do you think are better opinions ( "in-house" or new outsider) ??
     
    #5802
  3. The RDBD

    The RDBD Well-Known Member

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    I refer you the "The way forward for THFC" article.
     
    #5803
    Lovearsenalcock likes this.
  4. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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  5. The RDBD

    The RDBD Well-Known Member

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    When "source data" capture every game a prospect
    plays in becomes available, then scouts by definition are
    redundant. As said data capture is :

    1. not cheap enough to do

    2, sometimes not allowed (for example, academy players -
    clubs have strict no filming policies by non-club persons)

    then scouts still have an important role for clubs.
     
    #5805
  6. The Huddlefro

    The Huddlefro Well-Known Member

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    I was definitely one of those voices who said that Levy will have nothing left to hide following the employment of Conte.

    I think there are many reasons why it hasn’t worked out. Obviously significant have been Conte’s personal life over the last few months, and it’s fair to say we’ve had the worst season for injuries that I can remember for some time. Conte and his staff have also been unable to get Son out of his slump, which is alarming.

    All the circumstantial and Conte-related complaints (tactical dogma, reluctance to use certain players etc.) aside, this whole experience, and Conte’s post-Southampton outburst, have laid bare what we have all known or suspected for some time. There is no joined up thinking behind the scenes at Spurs. We have (had) a manger who wants certain kinds of players, a DoF who is trying to juggle those demands with a desire to also buy young upcoming players but has seemingly no plan to develop them, and a chairman who is paralysed by anything going wrong on the pitch and is neither willing to admit that the big ticket manger model doesn’t work at his new shiny Spurs, or to actually go fully into that model and chuck serious money in the right direction. Conte was backed but we didn’t go all in. Perhaps that’s because he never went all in either and always acted like he was doing us a favour just by being in the job. I guess there’s a question about what has to come first in terms of commitment from either side, but all that’s happened is that we’ve half-arsed it and ended up nowhere again. Nobody wins.

    I don’t think Stellini and Mason are long term options even if they turn us around and get 4th. By all accounts Stellini (and the rest of Conte’s staff) was given Conte’s blessing to remain at the club and try and get us over the line, and Conte is said to have respect for the figures at Spurs for how they have supported him over the last few months of his personal life, even if professionally, he’s completely disillusioned. Personally I have no idea what we’re going to do. Paratici’s situation remains up in the air and while he’s had a generally positive transfer record (with some caveats and misses too), I still have some major reservations around his work with the youth teams and general scouting. Perhaps some of that was because of Conte, I don’t know.

    We say this a lot nowadays, but it’s worrying times.
     
    #5806
  7. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    And that comment come from our stats. man and therefore should be given some weight.

    I think also that if you include video capture as data then the case for no scouts becomes stronger provided you have unlimited access. Which is what RDBD has said here. I am repeating it because I had assumed, wrongly, that data just meant stats. The use of video enables more people to 'check out' the prospective player which sounds ok but in reality leads to decision by committee which in the absolutist decision of a new player is IMO not a good idea.

    For example I would prefer a decision on a player from Redknapp then a decision from Redknapp and a bunch of accountants. Accountants and their friends should be kept well away from player recruitment.
     
    #5807
  8. bigsmithy9

    bigsmithy9 Well-Known Member

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    I would have liked Spurs to have brought in the former Liverpool Waiter to get us playing like a consistent team with a calming influence,even for a short period.There is no one about like that now!
     
    #5808
  9. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    please log in to view this image
     
    #5809
  10. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    It's Moneyball or Sabremetrics adapted for football.
    Brighton and Brentford have adopted it IIRC, which probably means that others will, too.
    I believe it's successful as a guide of who to look at, rather than who to sign.
     
    #5810

  11. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    If Brentford and Brighton are using this method their results are impressive. So do they still have scouts?
     
    #5811
  12. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    Yes. Brighton's expertise comes from their owner's company, Starlizard.
    They're a data analytics group that specialises in sports betting.
    Bookies love using the same stuff to set their odds, so they just extend it to individual players.
    They're not very open about their methods though, so a lot of how it works is speculation.
    I believe that they highlight statistically strong players and their scouts follow it up.
     
    #5812
    The Huddlefro likes this.
  13. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    On your first point I have never been keen on committee decisions but they are definitely better than decisions by individuals with no input from others. What you actually need is a team of people charged with preparing the data with recommendations to an individual responsible for making the decision.

    And accountants need to be involved in the data preparation because there will decisions of the type....do we sign one player costing 45m and one costing 25m or two costing 35m each. Unless we can quantify value for money in some way then that will just be a guess.
     
    #5813
  14. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    I'd prefer a decision from Redknapp that didn't involve accountants and his dog! <laugh>
     
    #5814
  15. The RDBD

    The RDBD Well-Known Member

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    Data begets measures. Measures beget stats.
    Stas beget (un)actionable information.
     
    #5815
  16. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    Do not step on me when I am down.
     
    #5816
  17. KingHotspur

    KingHotspur Well-Known Member

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    I’d go for what the new manager bounce to end the season strongly.

    Imo Stellini and Mason is the lazy and cheap option
     
    #5817
  18. PowerSpurs

    PowerSpurs Well-Known Member

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    They have different objectives to us though. If they can identify players who are a bit better on average than their price suggests they will outperform their peers.
    Our problem is totally different....everyone knows who the really good players are and our main rivals are more attractive to those players. A few years back we ended up with about six players who massively outperformed their transfer fee and who were the equals of their equivalents at our rivals and another 6 or 7 who were bargains but never really got into the very top class. That together with a decent coach got us challenging for the league.
    That happening again is pretty unlikely.
     
    #5818
  19. The RDBD

    The RDBD Well-Known Member

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    Who do you think that (currently available) new manager is ??
     
    #5819
  20. Spurf

    Spurf Thread Mover
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    I think that ignores the fact that both teams have come up with players who then became coveted by 'the top six' some of which have been transferred. You have to wonder where Brighton would be if they had managed to hang on to their top players. It used to be Southampton who produced fantastic players who were then sold. Both of the clubs could have been contenders if they had been able to hang on the players THEY produced or discovered.
     
    #5820

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