1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

What is entertainment?

Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by tipsycanary, Jan 3, 2014.

  1. JM Fan

    JM Fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    14,383
    Likes Received:
    4,633
    Surely you were entertained by the match at the Liberty last season (we won 4-3!!) under CH. We were even FIRST on MotD!!!!! I was also entertained by our recent game against ManUre and but for Hoolahoops trying to score rather than look up and see an unmarked Hooper, we could have scored and had a massive result!!! <ok>
     
    #21
  2. carrabuh

    carrabuh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    4,341
    Likes Received:
    362
    What I mean is the context, we do not play systems that accommodate intelligence, wingers, DM's, target man, crossing, defensive structure, they are focal points in Hughtons method that require little intelligence from the players.

    If you have intelligent players you don't play Hughtons set up.
     
    #22
  3. ThaiCanary

    ThaiCanary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    16,235
    Likes Received:
    1,949
    Although not the highest quality, the Man Utd game was an open and entertaining game in the first half and didn't need any goals to make it so <ok>
     
    #23
  4. CotswoldCanary

    CotswoldCanary New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2011
    Messages:
    907
    Likes Received:
    6
    Watching the binners fight amongst themselves as we systematically take them apart and we march to the premiership and become an established top flight club with recognition from around the world.
     
    #24
  5. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    11,385
    Likes Received:
    3,724
    Do we have intelligent players? I'd say we do. Martin, Hoolahan, RvW, Howson, E Bennett all come across as reasonably intelligent. Certainly when matched up against counterparts at, say West Ham or even Newcastle
     
    #25
  6. tipsycanary

    tipsycanary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,852
    Likes Received:
    30
    I don't think people are talking about their actual intelligence such as IQ, more the way they play the game, find space etc. I agree intelligence is not really the right word for it but its the one that is always branded about.
     
    #26
  7. carrabuh

    carrabuh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    4,341
    Likes Received:
    362
    I wouldn't say we have intelligent players, but thats not really a slander on us as there are very few who play in the Premiership.

    I'd probably have Ryan Bennett at the top of my Carrow Rd list, particularly for his age. The trouble is players can only really be clever when they have options to pick from.
     
    #27
  8. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,006
    Likes Received:
    769
    Your dichotomy of system/non-intelligent v intelligent/no system is quite simply false. As I pointed out in my earlier post, all successful teams combine system with intelligent players. No system is anti-intelligent, but some systems are better suited to less intelligent players. And I'm talking about footballing intelligence. <ok>
     
    #28
  9. GozoCanary

    GozoCanary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2012
    Messages:
    4,181
    Likes Received:
    2,239
    An interesting discussion on here from Robbie and Carrabuh.

    Obviously when I spoke of 'intelligence', I did mean 'football intelligence'. This is nothing to do with general IQ. Rooney has it, for instance, but off the pitch he seems as thick as two short planks. Or maybe even three.

    I'm not sure I agree with you, Robbie, but then we never agree on anything! I think you are putting too much emphasis on the players and not enough on the system. I agree it's the players ultimately who have to show that intelligence, but they must first be placed within a system which allows and encourages it. If the demands of the system are too rigid, the manager is merely trying to programme the players and actually harms their capacity for initiative, in my opinion. And that's what I see most of the time when I watch City.

    By the way, JR, yes, I did enjoy the 4-3 at Swansea, and there have been moments this season which I've found pleasant to watch (some of the play against Chelsea and MU). My original statement about robots was obviously slightly over-stated for dramatic effect but does sum up what I generally feel about our style under CH.
     
    #29
  10. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,006
    Likes Received:
    769
    So please identify a system for me which does not allow intelligent players to display their intelligence and show initiative? I think your approach to this question is coloured by a quaint belief that Chris Hughton is some sort of Svengali-like puppetmaster, casting a spell over the players and transforming them from intelligent human beings into mindless robots. Do any of the systems we play under CH actually fit the description of not allowing intelligent players to display their intelligence and show initiative (4:2:3:1; 4:3:3; 4:4:2)? (And by the way, if they do fit that description, then every other team in the PL and most other leagues I am familiar with is subject to the same strictures against playing to a "system".)

    You talk of CH trying to "programme" the players. Do you really think that instilling the art of sound defending as a team is "programming" the players? The object of defensive coaching is indeed to try to make it instinctive that the players get into the right position at the right time. Some players need less coaching than others, some have an intuitive understanding of where they should be when. But the principles of sound defence (for example) do not prevent players exercising intelligence or showing initiative when the opportunity arises. Nor does the coaching of attacking strategies. Teams like Barcelona, Arsenal, Bayern, Man Utd, Man City, etc. etc., indeed any successful team, practice offensive play just as much as defensive. Does this transform their players into puppets dancing to Guardiola's or Wenger's or SAF's strings? Of course not. <ok>
     
    #30

  11. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,006
    Likes Received:
    769
    Put another way, clever players thrive in a team of clever players. System doesn't come into it. But clever players in a team which is not made up of equally clever players, exercise their cleverness by adapting their game to the limitations of their colleagues. it is no good a Berbatov or Hoolahan playing a clever ball which is so clever none of their team mates is capable of anticipating it. <ok>
     
    #31
  12. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    11,385
    Likes Received:
    3,724
    This is true, but then too many cooks can spoil the broth and sometimes you need players who do the simple things to allow the clever players a solid platform.

    Or maybe too many Chiefs and not enough Indians is a better phrase
     
    #32
  13. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,006
    Likes Received:
    769
    Good evening Rob. Of course, but knowing when the situation calls for the simple thing, and doing it well, requires intelligence. (How often do we see our players in such a situation NOT do the simple thing?) <ok>
     
    #33
  14. Bath-Canary

    Bath-Canary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    3,065
    Likes Received:
    373
    please log in to view this image


    Couldn't resist
     
    #34
  15. GozoCanary

    GozoCanary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2012
    Messages:
    4,181
    Likes Received:
    2,239
    Any system can become too restrictive if the players aren't encouraged to improvise. It's not the system per se, it's the attitude. Creativity involves risk. We generally don't have any creativity because we won't take any risks.
     
    #35
  16. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,006
    Likes Received:
    769
    OK so let me ask you which are the most creative teams in the PL. And then tell me whether those teams could truly be described as "taking risks". When Man City creatively work an opening and score, have they abandoned safety and left themselves wide open in some way? When Man Utd mount a swift counter-attack and score, have their back four rushed forward leaving De Gea without cover?

    The truth is quite the opposite. The successful teams are the ones who have learned how to minimise risk and so play confident in the knowledge they are NOT risking anything and exposing themselves to defeat. <ok>
     
    #36
  17. GozoCanary

    GozoCanary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2012
    Messages:
    4,181
    Likes Received:
    2,239

    I don't think Man City is an argument that works in your favour. They have scored a lot of goals this season but they have not been particularly sound at the back, especially away from home.

    We seem to be arguing about how much risk is acceptable and the relationship between taking risks and success. But at heart, Robbie, I think this is really yet another argument about Hughton, a sort of phoney war. I guess you're as bored with it by now as I am. I doubt if either of us will ever be proved categorically correct. If we have a great second half to the season and then on New Years Day 2015 we are sixth in the Prem, I might have to admit that I was wrong. If we collapse in the second half of this season and finish bottom with 28 points, you might have to do the same. But the probable reality is somewhere between 36 and 42 points, either just going down or just scraping survival, and neither of us is proved right or wrong and the arguments rumble on forever.
     
    #37
  18. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,006
    Likes Received:
    769
    I'm questioning the idea that creativity is a trade-off against risk. You argued that we are not creative because CH is not prepared to take risks, as though a team which plays creatively has to take risks in order to do so. That just seems plain false to me. Successful teams play creatively, but they also put a lot of emphasis on minimising risk.

    Regarding CH, I only involve myself because I think a lot of the flak he gets is simply unwarranted. I have no pro-Hughton agenda; if we were managed by someone else and he was subject to the same undeserved criticism I would challenge the critics just the same. I came on this board in the hope of sharing insights into football and NCFC. The only insights I've gained are into the psychology of football fans, and disturbing a lot of those insights are. So if I suddenly disappear, it'll be because I've given up on my original objective, not because of anything that happens to the club or CH. <ok>
     
    #38
  19. GozoCanary

    GozoCanary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2012
    Messages:
    4,181
    Likes Received:
    2,239
    In that case, I really do have to disagree with you because I feel that in any walk of life, not just football, creativity does involve risk. We do something different and we are likely to fall flat on our face. We do the same as everyone has always done and we minimise that. I know I am in danger here of romanticising the rebel who breaks the rules, but it seems to me that every advance involves an element of risk and that the creative individual is always going to open himself or herself up to danger.

    A midfield player has the ball; he can either play the 'safe' pass to his colleague alongside him or he can try to thread a tricky ball through to the forward who is making a run. He tries the tricky ball; he tries to be creative. The risk of his team losing possession is massively higher than if he chose the safe option. So, in my opinion, there is a trade-off, and it happens all the time in every game.
     
    #39
  20. tipsycanary

    tipsycanary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,852
    Likes Received:
    30
    Risk would imply there is a certain unpredictability about the outcome (may make things more entertaining) but I'd agree with Robbie the best teams don't actually take that many risks, and if they do it is high up the pitch where their negative impact would be less. One of the best teams in recent years was Barceona with Pep in charge, scoring huge amounts of goals and conceding very few. They played a system that did not take many risks and I'd argue are actually one of the best defensive teams of all time because of it. Not because they had the best defenders, but because in their system they kept the ball so well no one had a chance, surely that is a low risk way of playing?

    We played a slightly higher risk game under Lambert and it often paid off against weaker sides but well organised high quality prem teams would make that style far less effective in the long run. In some ways when we try to sit back, relinquish possession and invite pressure that is a very high risk way to play. Attack the best form of defence? Maybe thats true to a degree.

    It can be about taking risks, but calculated risks in the right area of the pitch and as part of a strong system are how you can really get success.
     
    #40

Share This Page