Off Topic Political Debate

I have just been reading the EU manifesto from Le Pen. Looks as though Brexit has been used as a case study of what not to do. Better in than out, help the EU to evolve, keep the stable euro, use existing EU law to control immigration. Clearly she has realised that she has to appeal more to the left, so has a heap of environmental policies as well. It looks rather like a government document with the similarities of policy.

 

You might stumble on a few Le Pen supporters in the village now.

 

Unlikely. She is still regarded as a racist, and such people are not popular here.

 

There must be an awful lot of racists in France then judging by the huge support for her party.

 

Probably no more than there are in the UK.

 

And in your locale... No doubt

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You'll probably find posters of Tommy Robinson in your local pub. It's all relative...

 

I don't think that any country can be said to have more racists than another Frenchie. By the same token I would be reluctant to tar all supporters of the Front National, the AfD in Germany, or UKIP with the same brush and call them all racists. We need to be able to discuss the issue of immigration openly without use of such negative wording - not all people who express concerns about immigration are racists.

As you know Germany took in more refugees than any other country a few years ago - they were taken to allocation centres in the bigger cities and then parcelled off to various destinations. This was quite lucrative in as much as towns and municipalities were paid a grant for every refugee they accepted - so often the more cash strapped towns volunteered readily. In Engelskirchen we accepted 400. This is in comparison to a population of 20,000 - so we increased the population by 2%. Being active in local politics I had access to the relevant numbers and about a quarter of them came from Balkan countries like Albania (one was even from China) - the rest were from Syria, Iraq, Eritrea and Afghanistan - but they were nearly all young and male. 400 bored disorientated young men without money, and all from difficult backgrounds may blend in and be unnoticeable in Cologne - but here it is different. 400 young men with nothing to do equals trouble, wherever they are from. Had they been 400 young soldiers billeted nearby it would have been just as big a problem. And 400 young Scousers....well. What do I say to a mother with 2 nubile daughters who is worried about this, and considers the AfD as a result ? Undoubtedly information and education are the keys here because the AfD, and their equivalents elsewhere, will quite happily allow the themes of refugees, immigrant workers, and criminality to blend into each other. On the left we have to be able to debate this properly - because so, so many people are economically left wing, but are right wing on this one issue. We should also remember that the left were originally against immigration because it divided the working class along ethnic lines - only being forced into changing that position after World War 2.

 

More likely to be Rees Mogg, Tommy Robinson comes over as too yob like for his local.

 

Thankyou for a thoughtful insightful and considered post, on a subject which so many people find difficult.
If only all posts were so valuable in contributing to our thoughts.
Ultimately, all of us are citizens of one planet!

 

You haven't had a beer in a British pub for a while have you? This prick is gaining traction.

 

Which prick? The scummer football hooligan, or the old etonian with the silver spoon up his jacksie sucking on his offshore stash? I actually have more time for the former.... which isn't an awful lot.

 

Reading this and others comments. I wonder if we can steer this thread away from the simplistic and divise party politicking and back to the original aims of this thread as set up by Leo. For serious discussion on politics, political philosophy etc. It will do us all the world of good in these troubled times.
Any one up for it?

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No take up.. So may be we are all a bit jaded and wary.
I will have a go. Perhaps we can consider what might be the ideal notion of democracy?
In the ideal world in a modern large country what would you propose?
For me it has to be a system that is as inclusive as can be.. This might be a multi party system with a version of proportionate representation so minorities are represented..

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Democracy is one of the most used words Yorkie, but one of the least often defined or debated as to what it actually means. This could be due to the fact that the powers that be have realized that the best way to stop people fighting for something is to convince them they have it already. For me democracy is a process not an end product - so the minute you say that we have it already then it is gone. The best you can say is that we are democratizing. For me democracy and capitalism are incompatible. How can you call a country democratic if all they do is vote every 4 years, and if only the political sphere is covered ? When you have democracy at the workplace, in the schools, in every aspect of our society then you can lay claim to being a democracy, but only then. How can you call a country democratic when it's economy lies in private hands ? Maybe I am dreaming a bit here - so I'll put my Anarcho Communist colours to the side and just deal with Britain. Apart from the obvious lack of PR. in the UK. the country is the most centralized in the Western World. 75% of government spending comes directly from Westminster - by way of contrast only 30% of public spending in Germany comes directly from central government. Even small countries such as the Netherlands and Belgium are less centralized than the UK is. The UK. is the only country in the Western World where a political party can claim a majority based on only about 37% of the vote and can then rule in such a centralized manner, free of checks and balances. It is the only country in the Western World where the internal problems of a party with only 100,000 members could create such havoc.

 

It might have been possible in Leo's time, Yorkie, but for quite a few of us there's no longer any point. The relentless UK-bashing, the fixed immovable opinions about our democracy and the tendency to patronise make it no go area. Better things to do than get irritated by the unbalanced nature of most of the debate!

 

Theo, if you think that there are 'fixed immovable opinions about our democracy' then you could contribute with your own views on the subject which would enlarge the spectrum a bit. Of course there is criticism of the UK. on here because most of our material is about the UK. There would be no point whatsoever in me coming on here criticising Germany's political system because it would bore people to tears. If you resent what you see as 'relentless UK-bashing' then try to provide some counter to it.

 

Thank you for your comments which do reflect a lot of the frustration in this and the Brexit thread. However given the keen interest from a number of posters to post on these threads on these subjects I am seeing if people can move above party politics and discuss broader and more fundamental questions. So much healthier than the toxic mess I and some others have got drawn into. [emoji106]

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I have done and received a similar lecture in response. I have defined democracy and suggested why PR is not a particularly effective way to govern on here before, for example. The silence was deafening!

 

I am not lecturing anyone Theo - just asking you for your opinions, because then we have a starting point for debate. I do not remember your definition of democracy or of why PR is not an effective way, and am not scrolling back years looking for them. However I fail to see how you could have got a 'lecture' in response and 'deafening silence' at the same time.