Success measured by trophys

This is ridiculously partisan. Everyone now accepts that the Europa is a major trophy. Albeit not as prestigious as the CL trophy. The winners qualifying for the CL confers it that importance. The FA cup has gone down the table.

 

The Europa League is as much a major trophy as the FA Cup. Anyway there are City fans saying their two domestic cups will rank higher if we win the CL. Sorry they won't. The only trophy they will eclipse us on is the title. That's fair enough. However I do believe destroying Bayern Munich and Barcelona ranks higher than Burnley and Burton Albion.

 

For me it is touch and go between CL and premiership. It depends on the club and whether they've won the league. For me if we had won the title either this or in recent seasons, winning the CL will have been the crowning of a great team. Champions League expected to be won by champions or ex champions. Winning the CL without winning the domestic league recently (for both finalists) for me slightly takes off the shine.

PL surely must remain the top trophy for LFC.

 

I forgot the change was before Man Utd's win, but when Chelsea won it you didn't get a CL place so theirs is minor

 

Yes of course the title will rank higher, but the CL is a close second. I've said all along that whoever brings home the title will eclipse Rafa and Istanbul. It's the only thing that will. If Herr Charisma brings him big ears, he will equal EL Boss. He won't beat him.

If Herr Charisma is the man that brings home the title, he will be the greatest in the last 30 years. The good news is he's not far off doing it either.

 

For us, yes. We won CL as recently as 2005. PL has been forever in coming. There is nothing I want more than the PL.

For say, Spurs who haven't won either since electric lights went mainstream, winning CL would probably be a bigger deal than PL... A CL trophy is going to tempt big names to join you more than a PL trophy will

 

It does have more of an appeal, you do become more attractive regarding overseas players. Overseas players are attracted to the European Champions. However when it comes to English players in your team, they want to be top dogs in their country.

If Jordan Henderson becomes the first title winning skipper since Jocky Hansen, he'll get legend status . That legend status would be above what he'll get for being the first Liverpool CL winning skipper since Stevie Gerrard.

 

Klopp will... But I don't think Henderson will ever be considered a legend. We could win the next three quads in a row and I don't think Henderson will be considered a legend. He's not even an automatic write-in Klopp's team.

He may be captain, but I think more people would be willing to give the legend status to Salah, Mane, Firmino, or VVD.

 

I think what astro was saying was when those two won the EL it didn't bring CL qualification.

Edit: just seen his reply

 

To be honest, the way Klopp rotates that midfield and this will be the norm rather than the exception there won't ever be automatic starters. I hear too much of this first choice midfield and I don't believe there is one. I cannot see any of our current midfielders ever being automatic and that even includes Fabinho. I can even see more rotation next season. Klopp will rotate the midfield depending on the opposition. Even if he signs another, there will be rotation. I can foresee him signing a passer to unlock defences. That will be that something different.

 

except for milner.

every big game... Milner. almost bet my house on Milner starting.

 

Look I'm not sure I'm getting this rating for the FA Cup. You can argue that currently the FA Cup perhaps doesn't have the same standing as it did before.

BUT if you're looking historically and counting trophies, at the time clubs have won the FA Cup, for so MANY it did mean something, and that hasn't changed for them or on their achievement at the time.

If I'm counting United's FA Cups, in my lifetime the glory and achievement of winning it in 1983 and 1985, then 94 and 99 were massive and will remain so regardless of what status the competition has in the future. I bet the same is true for Liverpool in 1986 and 1989 and even 2006 for example. And for other clubs like Arsenal, West Ham, Spurs, Everton, Wimbledon to name a few. When we count them we're not just looking at numbers here, but what they meant at the time they were won and their 'standing' at the time of achieving those trophies.

For me, for that reason I still hold the FA Cup count higher in value to The UEFA Cup/Europa Cup.

 

So basically you agree that since 2000 the fa cup has become utterly meaningless

Seriously though... the fa killed it and are still killing it.

Nobody is taking it seriously and half of it being on bt and the other half being BBC amateur hour doesn't help.

Imo they did irreparable damage when they had finals on same weekend as prem or even had prem finish a week later

 

I know what you're saying but that's from a traditional perspective. However when it comes to recruiting overseas players, it's different. Overseas players are more attracted to a club that has destroyed Barcelona and Bayern Munich than Burnley and Burton Albion. City may have eclipsed us on the title, but should we win the CL we'll eclipse their cups.

 

Wrong thread oops!

 

I agree with this, it has been "cashed in". The last straw was doing the draws in the middle of The One Show ffs

But I still maintain that if we're counting FA Cups, then we are looking at the significance of the Cup at the time it was achieved. For the vast majority of the competition it has been unrivalled as the best domestic knockout trophy in the world.

For example The Copa Del Rey and the Italian one (forget the name) have never compared to the FA Cup. Not even by their own fans, ever.

 

Yeh don't get me wrong CL is always the bigger trophy. And you're probably right, overseas players will even look at the Europy as more important than the FA Cup. I think a large part of that is because they've never rated their domestic knockout competitions much.

**** em, I think we should continue to do so though

 

Yeah I'd have to agree. The one show is a debacle.

Football focus is the time and place for 3rd round draw.

We are only counting fa cup as a minor trophy, same as league cup as it delivers same.

For me the league cup should be stripped of any European place or should have been.

Now the timing of league cup is far better for big rich sides to dominate.

 

This cup argument shows our complete arrogance as fans of our respective teams.

Think what the many long suffering football fans would give to have a 'worthless', lowly little League Cup that we're turning our noses up at.

 

From a fans perspective, every trophy is valuable, even the league cup. However if you take it from a club's perspective and money being the issue it's different.

Look at it this way. The prize money for winning the FA Cup is no more than £5 million. The play-off final is worth £140 million so which are clubs looking to get promoted going to push for? Staying in the PL is worth £100 million so what are the bottom 6 going to push for?

If you are a Southampton or Burnley and it's a choice of staying up or progress in the FA Cup. It will always be staying up.

Money is also why some clubs will push harder in Europe rather than domestic cups. The money difference is vast. Getting to the CL quarters is now worth £60 million. Never mind winning it or getting to the final. Getting to the final will make Spurs and Liverpool this season will be €105 million.

The overall winners will recieve €121 million. The combined prize-money for the FA and League Cup is £10 million. The FA need to make the FA Cup more attractive by arranging it with UEFA that the FA Cup winners get CL qualification instead of the 4th placed team. That would ensure that success rather than failure is rewarded. It's also motivation.