Mourinho...how long will he be given?

I’m not saying Jose’s innocent or without blame because he’s had zero effect since joining but it’s clear these players have downed tools.

My worry is if both Jose and Levy will make the required ruthless decisions. Jose has also been doing a lot of Poch-esque stuff by speaking highly and nicely about some of the players as well continuously picking underperformers.

So many need to be binned; either past it, no longer good enough or never were good enough.

Hopefully Gedson and Tanguy can inject a bit of life back into us, they probably don’t even realise how much the fans are relying on them now.

 

On the other hand, Sanchez's 'mare against Boro was purely on the lack of a DM, and while people are hoping for Tanganga to be the new Ledders having him play behind a porous midfield will rapidly see him dismissed as another Chiriches

The sad fact is that back in September (I think) I was able to split the team into two camps, one who care and one who don't, and nothing's changed since then other than Gedson and Tanganga being introduced to the squad, but what that says is that if we look at Team Give A **** it has to be looked at as being core players and squad players, and that's the issue
Core: Kane, Son, Ndombele, Lo Celso, Dele, Sanchez, Davies, Sessegnon, Lloris
Squad: Lamela, Sissoko, Foyth, Dier, Lucas, Gazzaniga

The amount of gaps in that core squad is alarming

Also, here's something for other posters to consider: under Ramos we were a mess, yet in comes Harry Redknapp to put an arm around the players and things began to click. Same can be said for Poch: under AVB/Sherwood we were a mess, in came Poch to put an arm around the players and we clicked - until certain players started routinely taking the piss, anyway

 

I dunno, I like Dave and want him in the XI but that Boro performance was shocking, his headers and clearances were so iffy I thought Titus Bramble was at the back .

I agree with the “give and don’t give a ****” separation. Although my worry is also that some of the ones who give a ****, likely do so because they know they can’t play for a better club, so it’s essentially out of desperation. Hugo isn’t the same keeper he once was and Dele hasn’t been consistent enough since his first two seasons. Lamela bleeds Tottenham but is unreliable with injuries and we realistically should’ve sold a window or two ago. Dier’s gone to pot. Lucas is dreadfully inconsistent that I think we could probably upgrade on him. Foyth unfortunately is finished I think, neither Poch nor Jose seem/ seemed to truly rate him.

 

Foyth probably would've had a chance to establish himself at RB under Poch if he didn't miss the first couple of months of the season with an ankle injury, but instead he was mainly cameos from the bench barring his sole start against red Star where he and Lo Celso showed a good understanding (which is understandable, as they play on the right for Argentina) - but Steptonho has essentially set him up to fail, starting him at CB against Bayern as part of a weakened back four, then hauling him off at half time against Norwich for one mistake that was just as much the fault of a weak midfield and a right back who was closer to Norwich's goal than ours at the time

In terms of Lucas, the obvious issue is that any mention of him being sold would get the fans screaming about his hat trick against Ajax, but there's one obvious problem with Lucas: while there's no denying he scores goals, he's really bad at creating chances, as in the entire time he's been with us he's got just three league assists - while in comparison Sonny has eight assists in the league this season alone, and when a winger has half the assists that Toby has this season that's something that needs addressing

 

Yeah he definitely had a higher chance under Poch although I still don’t think the chance was that great but it seems Tanganga is now ahead of him both at CB and RB under Jose so I can’t see a route for Foyth to succeed here now.

With regards to Lucas, this was what I mean about fans with regards to championing mediocrity, don’t get me wrong Lucas provided one of the highest highs I’ve had as a Spurs fan with that Semi Final performance but his contribution overall to Spurs has been “ok/ decent” at best. Moments of brilliance in between too many moments of “nothingness”. I hadn’t even realised how poor his assist ratio was. Wouldn’t be first I’d kick out the door but he’s someone we can definitely do better than.

 

That's the thing: Poch realised that Lucas was best utilised as an impact sub, as he has the pace to cause all manner of problems and the positioning and awareness to be a reliable goal threat - but once again the fanbase wouldn't let him do his job

On the one hand I am glad we've moved on from the dark days of lauding Gary Doherty because supporting the team needed a thick protective shield of irony to make it tolerable, but the way the fans show more loyalty to players than the team or the manager like they did when demanding we don't sell Danny Rose last summer (and that gift just keeps on giving, doesn't it?) is perplexing

Should Poch have wielded the axe eighteen months ago? Absolutely. At the very least if we offloaded GKN and Wanyama a couple of summers ago we would have freed up the non-HG places we desperately needed while also creating a chance to jettison Rose, and from there Poch could've started molding his new team and continued the process through last summer by the time we'd also offloaded Janssen and Dembele - but we didn't do that, so what's ultimately harming the team is failing to sell a couple of pieces of deadwood two years ago

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal..._source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

I reckon they went for ice cream after...well, Rose certainly did.

 

...but can any of us say the same for Dier?

He gets no end of backing, despite being very clearly unfit to play.

He's not the only one either. WTF was Rose doing in the team against Liverpool? He might even be less fit than Dier, if such a thing is possible?

 

Though to this point the results are much the same - I personally have seen very little difference in the standard & quality of our football, yes we are 'a bit more direct' and I accept that he is getting similar results with the same players. But I was expecting by now, that he would have seen and identified where the problems are and at least applied a metophorical sticking plaster to stop us bleeding points and goals.

I was ambivalent about his appointment, though I was in the Pochs time was up camp, I am prepared like others to give him time and I know that some alterations in the playing staff are needed, but you cannot change 8 or 9 first team players in 2 windows, teams have tried before and it rarely works out. 12 months ago the majority of the players in this squad were being lauded as being some of the best we have ever had, I hope Jose is able to unlock that again in some of them, whilst clearing out the real deadwood like Rose, Dier and Wanyama,

 

Dier hasn’t played in the league since Boxing Day against Brighton and that was a 15 minute cameo. His last League start was against Chelsea where he was taken off at HT. He’s only played in the two FA Cup games recently.

Rose’s inclusion in the Liverpool game was baffling but that has been his only league start under Jose, the other two appearances were on Jose’s first game where Davies went off injured and another 15 minute cameo against Chelsea.

Both have barely featured of late, presumably because Jose now acknowledges they’re just not good enough.

 

In terms of sticking plasters, there's the one that's come up several times on here in the last couple of seasons: Foyth as a DM

Poch had his reasons for not trying, as he was looking to mold Foyth into an RB last season and he missed the first couple of months with an ankle injury this season, yet there's no reason why Steptonho doesn't add to the ever-growing list of midfield combinations we've had in the last couple of months, and that's also a better use of a resource than deciding he's the one player in the squad who gets banished after one defensive error when the rest of our back four have made numerous ones since without being dropped

If it doesn't work it doesn't work, if it does work it does work - what's so hard about that?

 

I'm not so sure.

One of the very few, noticeably good things, in the last month and a half, has been that we've been better in the second half. Often we're already losing because the team selected has been unbalanced and the tactics haven't worked...but the effort's been there.

We tried against Southampton...and Liverpool...and Norwich...and Brighton. There's not very much confidence but the effort has largely been present in that second half. We just need to stop being so ****ing dreadful at the start and having to try to come back from behind so often.

Mouriho's supposed to be good at tactics and motivation. Tonight would be a good time to get it right.

 

I hope so...but I still don't trust him on it.

 

I think we have to trust him, he came in and probably thought he could get Dier to be his new Matic, he’s realised that for whatever reason Dier just can’t seem to get fit or recapture his old form and has since been dropped. Rose has never really seemingly been in his plans, he even said in an interview that Davies’ injury ruined what he had planned with regards to his defensive setup and I think that says a lot about his views on Rose. Why he played him against Pool no one will really know but with that start aside, two cameo appearances in the league plus starts against Olympiacos (Jose’s second game, probably hoped he could cover for Ben well enough) and Bayern (dead rubber) are all Rose has had.

If either players play I think it’s more out of desperation/ lack of options than anything else.

 

He has options. Skippy will out-perform Dier, every day of the week.

Sessegnon can at least run, even if he lacks experience. Mourinho could accommodate Sessegnon but he went for Rose.

If there are problems with morale, picking the players who will put it all in for the shirt would be a good start. If you don't and keep losing, it's hard to forgive.

That's where I am with Mourinho. When he starts picking teams with the best options included (even on the bench), he'll have my support - irrespective of results. If he doesn't, I'll continue to call him out on it.

 

I agree with you but this chopping and changing is why I am convinced that Jose is trying things out.

He did pick Rose but now he has dropped him in the last 2 games and has said he wants to develop Sessegnon. He’s also dropped Dier after his multiple chances but you have to give a player a run of games to give him the chance to mess it up consistently...then he has reacted.

Next up is probably Aurier but options are limiting actions it seems. Japhet has played last 2 games at FB.

Therefore I think I’m seeing some kind of evolution.

 

He's been quite ****ed on fullbacks though, to be fair.

He wanted to give Aurier free reign to get forward by using Davies as a third centre-half for most of the game.
The Welshman almost immediately got injured when we were 3-0 up in Mourinho's first match.
He's since tried Vertonghen, Rose, Sessegnon and Tanganga there, while switching through various formations and systems.
The obvious answer is that Aurier's part of the problem, but we don't really have an alternative in that position, either.

Mourinho's not getting everything right, by any means, but our squad has a lot of problems.
It's a long-term issue that should've been dealt with over the course of several years.

 

If Rose and Dier had looked fit enough to play but were in bad form, I'd go with that. However, they're both obviously not fit enough to play PL football, especially at full back and central midfield.

If he had to look at Dier, the only possible scenario was sitting deep, in front of the centre halves, as part of a three man midfield. However, he played in a two and roamed the pitch at half speed with no stamina...and did it over and over, giving the ball away as he went.

I know of nobody who was happy with the Rose selection against Liverpool. It was madness and he was as bad as we all thought. When you've worked out that a player's gone, accept it and move on.

These are poor, poor mistakes for any manager, let alone one of his experience and revisiting Rose suggests that he may not done with Dier, either.

I hope that I'm wrong. I hope that he'll start to pick players who are fit and properly balance the line-up. I know that DH will be exasperated by this, but Winks has to play tonight. He's the only central midfielder we can count on not to go missing positionally, Play 2 out of Ndombele/Lo Celso/Gedso Fernandes on either side of him but let's not vacate the centre of the pitch again.

 

At present, Skipp and Winks would be just as bad as Dier and Winks. It'd be a midfield with no real ability to impact the game from a forward standpoint and it'd end up getting overrun and outclassed. Skipp and Gedson could work, Skipp and Tanguy could work but starting Skipp right now when Winks is probably most likely to start would just be pointless.

Sessegnon in fairness has been very poor at LB. I still want and would rather persist with him there but I don't think fans can realistically say Sess is a massive upgrade in the position at the moment because he really isn't, by his own admission he's not been playing like he can and I appreciate that honesty.

I think as Spurly says, it's about chopping and changing for Jose to see who he can truly rely on and in some areas, he's had to give x amount of chances to see if a player is able to improve or not. He hasn't had the luxury to do it in others due to lack of options.

We really need to add some more players this window and allow Jose to start building his own team. Gedson already made his debut about 48 hours after signing, to me that shows Jose will happily throw some new lads straight in there because the current batch aren't up too it, hopefully he gets the chance to do more of the same.

 

Very true but picking Rose isn't a viable answer. The options may have flaws but of those options, he's easily the worst.

Dier's seems as done as Big Vic but if you have to play him, he needs players to do his running. Playing 5 forwards and Dier in a 2 man midfield against Chelsea's 3 men was just ****ing nuts.

I'm sorry, but "No." Everyone could see it wasn't going to work...except the manager.

His job is to carve performances and results out of what he's got, not to prove how bad some of them are. I don't see any creative answers to those problems, just playing a system that we don;'t have the players for, with players who aren't actually fit.