Nottingham........

Talking about making points, you said that defunded the police wasn't about taking money away from policing, just redirecting it.

New York's mayor slashed 1 billion dollars from the police budget and guess what? gun and gang crime is soaring.

 

It's not about which party would have done a better job, that's impossible to answer for sure. The point is that whether you look at the economy, or whether you look at the number of cases, or whether we look at the number of deaths, in every category we are one of the worst performing countries on this planet. That's despite our so-called better healthcare, social system and wealth. I don't care whether another party would have done better, but in reality when you compare this government to the other 200+ world leaders and see that we are performing as one of the worst everywhere, it could be a fair assumption that a different government would have done better.

And the only reason I mentioned the Labour lot was as proof that you would not be defending this shambles if they had got in and did the same. Whereas if Labour had got in and they performed like this, I would have been just as vocal in my criticism of them as I am with the Tories. The difference is you treat politics with a football club mentality, which is just baffling. I'll hold those in power to account no matter who it is, whereas you won't. I want the best for my country from my government. Whereas you only do if it's the 'other' team. Says it all really doesn't it?

My point to you is the opposite. What would it take for you to actually think the government are doing badly? At what point does it stop being, 'oh but it's an unprecedented situation', and become 'they really are ****'. Is it 100,000 deaths? A million deaths? Because we already have the most excess deaths in Europe. We also have the worst performing economy out of the top European nations. When will it be too much? Or would you continue to make excuses for them even if we lost half the population?

You defend them to the absolute hilt and at some point (unfortunately that point was long ago) it becomes clear that it's a biased rather than sympathetic viewpoint. The Tories may well have an ideology that many agree with, but this government representing them are absolutely abysmal from top to bottom at implementing it. And even some of the top Tories are publicly accepting that now.

Sorry to come across a little blunt on this post mate but my government should be protecting me. I pay my taxes for that to happen. And what have they done? They failed on PPE. They've come up with convoluted and confusing rules which even their own MP's don't understand when giving interviews. They spent an absolute fortune on testing capability that isn't enough, then blamed the population for wanting too many tests. They spent even more on a contact tracing system which is even more broken, giving MY money to their mates in the process. Where does it even end?

Germany have a considerably bigger population than us.
- Today they had 5k new cases, we had 18k
- They have had less than a quarter of the deaths we have had
- Our economy shrank by over 20%, theirs by less than 10%
- You can get a free Covid test on arrival if you are visiting, in some places you get results in less than half a day
- They actually do less tests than us, but because they locked down at the right time and tested in the right places, they're miles ahead

That's part of how to do it. And while you sit around refusing to criticise our lot, while telling everybody that Labour would have 'bankrupted the country', the irony is that while other countries recover promptly and sufficiently after Covid, this government's ineptitude may well cause the biggest economic struggle this country has ever faced.

Why am I not shocked?

So how do you explain the number of excess deaths with or without Covid we've had then? They're up 37%.

Or are you trying to say that a global pandemic comes along, total deaths are up 37% year on year, and that Covid didn't really kill them and the rise is just a coincidence?

Great. Missing the point by a country mile once again. But put it in the other thread and debate it there.

 

On a non-essay, gutting point about Covid - my friend sent me a video of her in New Zealand moshing at a festival the other day

Gutting to know normality is back elsewhere in the world where they handled it so much better (admittedly with a far, far easier population density mind you).

 

Not sure where you get your figures from regarding excess deaths as there are various reports on this and not all conclusive..there has also been high excess deaths in other years that did not involve Covid......Having said that, of course as is in most countries the excess figure is up.
I agree Germany doing are doing so much better and I agree that testing has been key, but I also believe they are a nation that mainly do as they're told unlike the mobs out in Liverpool the other week, unlike the Brits congregating on the beaches a day before lockdown..(Culture of excess freedom)
But hey, I have said that the Tories have made mistakes, but I repeat I also believe that whatever government in power in the UK would have not fared any better.
Of course neither you or I will be able to prove this, but I feel, how the other parties reacted over brexit and the overwhelming majority in the referendum and losing in the last election by a country mile...the people of this Country have no trust in them.........me included.
I agree, we've not been fantastic in handling this unprecedented Pandemic, but the Tories are trying it's best to reduce hospital admissions and help to keep the economy going, with most of the people having help to either save their jobs or to keep their businesses going....
You and I won't agree, but I honestly believe we're doing ok under the circumstances.

 

Not sure I totally agree with everything, but very well put 1for.
One thing I’m with you on is that I don’t think a Labour government would have done any better - but it’s still a shambles.
I also agree with you about us being a nation that doesn’t do as it’s told - but a few short sharp shocks by way of big fines would fix that. 80ll0cks to everything going through the courts taking months with loads of lawyers getting rich - if you’re breaking lockdown and unable to provide a valid reason then you’re fined - end of.
Not that I agree with lockdown - but that’s a different story.

 

This one is for Rob.

When there was no sign of covid

Let me guess, that was down to the Tories as well!!

• In the 2017 to 2018 winter period, there were an estimated 50,100 excess winter deaths in England and Wales.
  
  
• The number of excess winter deaths in 2017 to 2018 was the highest recorded since winter 1975 to 1976.
  
  
• During the winter months of 2017 to 2018, the number of daily deaths exceeded the daily five-year average for all days except 25 March.
  
  
• Excess winter mortality in 2017 to 2018 significantly increased from 2016 to 2017 in all English regions and Wales, with Wales having the highest regional index.
  
  
• Excess winter mortality continued to be highest in females and people aged 85 and over.
  
  
• Excess winter mortality doubled among males aged 0 to 64 years between 2016 to 2017 and 2017 to 2018.
  
  
• Over one-third (34.7%) of all excess winter deaths were caused by respiratory diseases.
  
  
• “The number of excess winter deaths in England and Wales in 2017 to 2018 was the highest recorded since the winter of 1975 to 1976. However, peaks like these are not unusual – we have seen more than eight peaks during the last 40 years. It is likely that last winter’s increase was due to the predominant strain of flu, the effectiveness of the influenza vaccine and below-average winter temperatures”.
  
  Nick Stripe, Health Analysis and Life Events, Office for National Statistics

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...wales/2017to2018provisionaland2016to2017final

 

wonder should that be due to the super fast machines are made there? [ one of the world manufacturers anyways ]

 

This is why I detest stats with a passion!! I know this is part of the modern world, but they are now generally used to "prove" or "disprove" a theory or argument put forward. Everyone uses them for their own ends!

 

Lies damned lies and statistics
It's still not clear to me what the actual Covid number of deaths are, where it is the only reason, and is the actual cause of death.
This is not including people who already have heart failure or COPD and who then get the virus and die because of the underlying health issues plus getting final coup de grace from Covid..
To my simple mind they should be 2 very different causes of death, so are the actual figures of Covid deaths we're being fed accurate or not ?
I suspect they may be actually lower than is being reported.

 

I remember researching the excess number of deaths in Italy back in March when it was all kicking off..... They've had far worse years than 2020....and I'm talking within the last 10 years.....sometimes makes you wonder!!
That's why I believe, it's an impossible task for the current government to get anything right to some....Especially with such biased media that we have in this Country.

 

I have no idea how you think this proves me wrong mate. Members have liked your posts but your link backs me up more than you!

Let's take your first point alone - your link says we had 50,100 excess winter deaths in England and Wales, a new 40 year record. Your link says it's based on August through to July, so let's say 12 months, and 50,100 excess deaths.

Well let's compare that with this year, and let's measure since March 20th, when deaths started rising. As you can see, in the 6.5 month period it measures after that point, we had 59,261 excess deaths.

- So that means we've had 20% more deaths than your winter "record" I might add
- All in just approximately half the time period that yours was measured against (a few weeks more)
- This isn't even accounting for the winter to come, which is when you'd expect the virus to take more of a hold, whereas your number includes winter as well

This isn't a blip, or a random spike. You yourself provided the RECORD excess death number in an attempt to downplay them, and the numbers for this year obliterate them.

You've played yourself here. The stats back my point up I'm afraid not you!

 

And that's exactly why we use excess deaths as a measure. It doesn't just measure those who died of Covid, it measures everyone who died, and compares the number to previous years.

As you can see, we're on for a new record by some distance. Although we only have 43,000 recorded Covid deaths in the UK, from my link above you can see we have just under 60,000 excess deaths in England and Wales alone since March.

If anything, it shows that our Covid death number is underreported (as I'm sure are many other countries by the way).

You've had plenty of likes on this post, and yet it is categorically untrue.

 

But the figures coming out are saying are Covid deaths....what 44,000? leaving how many excess deaths??...sorry it's not adding up but just adding fuel for the argument!!
From the figures I pointed out hardly anything in it, (those are winter excess deaths in England and Wales only) We didn't lockdown. we didn't have social distancing. we all didn't wash our hands every five minutes, we didn't test, Nothing was done even though we still had all those deaths.............We also didn't shut companies and pubs down, we also didn't stop people going on holiday or taking flights...nothing done but yet we still had those deaths...............................I'm not convinced..
I also checked the figures in Italy, they also had years of excess deaths..more than 2020......................Like I said, I'm not convinced!

NB. England & Wales
1967-1968 over 70,000 excess winter deaths
1969-1970 nearly 68,000 excess winter deaths

 

That shows that apart from Covid we only have 17000 excess deaths.........yeah right!!

 

And what's wrong with that? You’re trying to use stats which you don’t understand mate. Remember it's excess deaths, not total deaths. Excess deaths are the number of deaths above the average that you might expect to happen usually.

What that number shows, is that while we have had 43,000 confirmed Covid deaths in the UK, with 60,000 excess deaths (i.e.above the average you usually expect) in England and Wales, the true number of actual Covid deaths is probably higher than 43,000. Without getting SPSS (statistical software) out and actually going into the numbers which I have no desire to do, it's impossible to say with any likelihood how much more than 43,000 it is.

 

What none of these died of normal respiratory problems that happen with flu most years? That's rubbish and you know it..

 

peeps dwell on the winter months yet the summer months quite often [ any excessively hot month! ] adds to excess death's.
to get a true figure you would have to have a very accurate "cause of death" like winter flu... dehydration ….heat exhaustion …. hypothermia … covid … heart …. etc etc etc. You would also have to add " as a consequence of underlying" … a healthy person with just covid [died ] a person overweight under weight & / or with low resistance/ poor immune system etc …….
of course one of the early comments was " most peoples immune system kicks in almost straight away … but it is reliant of the depth of exposure whether it can produce enough anti bodies to combat the virus before becoming overcome" a statement that covers all of the aforesaid!

I think sometimes people like something they don't understand, like the "wrong reply" simply because they do not like the original poster! ???

 

You're clearly lost on what excess deaths are. I'm trying to help you here but you clearly can't get your head around it.

Long story short. We have had 60,000 deaths MORE than the average we might usually expect. Some of them will be respiratory diseases. Some will be getting hit by a bloody car. But it's no coincidence that these 60,000, which is FAR higher than the record that you posted a couple of years back, suddenly came long when Covid hit. Most of them will be Covid.

You're claiming 'that's rubbish and you know it' but it's you who is quite clearly misunderstanding the numbers here.

 

my calculations are quite a few less than 43,000 certainly less than 30,000 It usually takes 2 or 3 years for ONS to come up with a reliable statistic and by then media has bloated the true figure which due to time interest in it has waned. Should they state in say 2023 "the realistic death's from Covid 19 from 28th Feb: 2020 to 30th September 2020 was 27, 619 who would actually care!

 

Absolutely right, there will be all sorts of reasons why these deaths happened. They won't all be Covid, absolutely not.

But onefor just gloriously told us about the record year that we had 50,100 excess deaths in England and Wales in a year.

Well suddenly we had 60,000 in HALF that time, just beginning at the same time that the pandemic started.

Maybe it's all a massive coincidence? Or maybe I'm just right on this one.