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The Supreme Novices' Hurdle 2021

Discussion in 'Horse Racing' started by OddDog, Jan 24, 2021.

  1. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    Going to try a slightly different format for this race thread, without the wordy opening.

    So:

    Opening race (highly likely to be without the famous roar in 2021)
    Old course, 2 miles 87 yards, 8 hurdles
    Key attributes required: Speed, fluent hurdling, horse 100% ready, jockey who rides the course well
    Most successful: Trainer - Willie Mullins (6 wins); Jockey - Ruby Walsh (6 wins)

    I'm cutting straight to the chase here - I think we have a false favourite. Appreciate It, trained by Willie Mullins, has done very little wrong in his career to date - 6 starts, 4 wins, second in the Champion Bumper last year, won the Grade 1 Future Champion Novices Hurdle at Leopardstown over Christmas with authority, trained by the master Willie Mullins, the most successful trainer in the race's history, surely this is a lump-on job at 5/2? I say NO. He looks an embryonic chaser through and through - do I fancy him for next year's Arkle - oh yes! But I think he will be vulnerable here to a real speedster. Just who that speedster might be, I'm not yet sure. But I think this favourite needs taking on and we need to watch upcoming novice hurdle races with a keen eye to spot something coming out of the woodwork.

    In terms of the betting, the strongest British challenger is currently second-fav Metier, trained by Harry Fry. The Mastercraftstman gelding was rated 90 on the flat and is 3/3 over hurdles, culminating in an impressive victory in the Tolworth and an official rating of 149. Admirable sort, but a Supreme winner? Hmmmm. Next best in the betting is Third Time Lucki who is 3/4 over hurdles but is only rated 144. Supreme winner? Hmmmm. Ballyadam was well held at Leopardstown, My Drogo is 2/2 but also rated only 140, Boothill needs to be seen on the racecourse again. Blue Lord ran well when 2nd to Bob Olinger recently and that form looks half decent.

    Basically, I think we have a false favourite who looks a chaser in the making and I am looking for something with real speed to beat him. Nothing really obvious at the moment, perhaps trials weekend or the Dublin Racing festival will throw something up, perhaps one of the novice mares, perhaps even one or two of the juveniles (where there seems to be real strength in depth this season)? Perhaps even the nutcase that is For Pleasure can go off at a mad pace, be ignored by them all and last home up the hill?

    All thoughts and ideas welcomed as I am struggling with this one at the moment.
     
    #1
  2. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
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    Current TF ratings (Last updated to cover racing 17/01/2021)
    upload_2021-1-24_20-58-43.png
     
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  3. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Well-Known Member

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    My Ante-Post Bet for this one (Uhtred 40/1 e/w) hasn't been seen yet and it looks like it's going to the Ballymore so I'll have to go back and have a closer look. On the other hand, my bet for the Ballymore ( Ballyadam 16/1 e/w) I think it's going to come here so bad for both sides.
     
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  4. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    Keep your eyes open Pilgrim, the winner is out there somewhere <ok>
     
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  5. As We Know

    As We Know 1 of the top judges in Europe

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    A chaser in the making like Altior, Shishkin, Al Ferof, Douvan, Vautour, Champagne Fever and Menorah?

    You can argue hes no value but hes certainly not a false favourite, hes a clear and obvious favourite and will take a power of beating. 14/1 about him was the bet, if you missed it youre now looking for scraps in this race. I have Metier at 33s and Third Time Lucki at 25s but im not expecting them to beat Appreciate It.

    Henderson is usually the only one standing in the way of mullins in this and unless he gets Flinteur Sacre back on track it doesn't look like he has his normal standard of ammo.

    Appreciate it will probably end up about 7/4
     
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  6. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    Quite correct Boris (still my favourite of your names) - I haven’t expressed myself clearly enough. What I mean is, Appreciate it is a big, strapping bumper horse who I’m sure will go on to become a chaser over further and will be more about stamina than speed. The horses you mention above were all what I would call speedier types and if one of those were to pop up this year I think Appreciate It could be vulnerable.
     
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  7. As We Know

    As We Know 1 of the top judges in Europe

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    Speed and stamina in jump racing is a bit of an enigma, very difficult to get a handle on it and not something i want to write about on my phone. As ive said in the past, I think the difference between 2m and 3m is greatly overplayed, its extremely common for nh types to be effective at both and everything in between, the further you go in distance the greater the effective range and the less specialised it becomes, I see the difference between 5f and 8f as more significant.

    If you look at the history of the Supreme there have been many Gold Cup horses run well in it, and that suggests its about class more than speed/stamina. Once you start getting into wanting further than 2 miles we are really just talking about different grades of stayers. The 2m4 jump horse id imagine is pretty rare if it exists at all, and the vast majority running at that trip are just not good enough for the best races which take place at 2m and 3m, rather than having a shortage of speed or stamina.

    Go Native was the last speed horse to win the Supreme, the likes of him and Harchibald are the type of horse whos upper limit is 2 miles, but they are pretty rare in the game. Its more common that 2 miles is the minimum end of the range for nh horses and in general a typical top class novice could comfortably run effectively in any of the 3 races. The Ballymore has produced many champion hurdle horses, and weve even seen a World Hurdle winner go on to win an Arkle.

    Very interesting topic that hasnt been solved imo.
     
    #7
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
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  8. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    I wonder how much impact Ruby has had on that? He dominated the race and the way it was run for so many years, very often setting the pace from the front.

    The more I think about it, the more speed horses I remember who were beaten in a Supreme - MTOY, Darlan, Spirit Son and I don’t see anything of that quality around this season. If Townend can get the sectionals right on Appreciate It he ought to be very difficult to beat.
     
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  9. Tamerlo

    Tamerlo Well-Known Member

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    “It’s about class more than speed/stamina.”
    I’d probably agree with you, but class isn’t that easy to define in National Hunt Racing.
    I’ve always felt that, primarily, the winter game is about “jumping.”
    There’s been loads of quality Flat horses littered by the wayside because they couldn’t jump.
    There was a classic example in the sixties which mystified the pundits and experts...
    Thomson-Jones ran his class Flat handicapper, London Gazette, in his first hurdle race at Cheltenham- having cantered in under 9st 12lbs in heavy ground in the Liverpool Autumn Cup Handicap.
    Apparently, he’d schooled brilliantly at home and he was receiving
    I think 12 lbs from the versatile Scottish Memories, a quality chaser who was pretty decent over hurdles and on the flat.
    Scottish Memories led all the way, skipping economically over his jumps but London Gazette had seemed to jump OK and he joined the leader at the last. Try though he could, Scottish Memories had a bit more speed to the post.
    The answer has to lie in the jumping and the exertions of one horse compared to the other.
    How did one mediocre Flat horse (Monksfield- third in Irish Cesarewich under low weight) and another terrible one, Persian War ( a useless stayer) become two of the best hurdlers of the 20th century?
    Simple. They were two of the best jumpers of a hurdle you’ll ever see.
    Arguably, that’s “class.”
    The rest is debatable.
     
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  10. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
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    Very interesting debate. There are of course other factors to consider to varying extents eg a simple thing like a happy horse performs to a much higher level than an unhappy one; so the way it is looked after nutritionally, handling, and general relationship with a horse can make a lot of difference. Conformation makes a significant difference to the efficiency of movement; the more efficient its movement the further it can go with the minimum of effort. In the extreme a horse with an "upright" shoulder will exert more energy than a horse with a well laid shoulder (assuming the horse is not unbalanced in other respects); consequently it will not be able to sustain its momentum for as long. Similarly, as Tam has said if a horse exerts more energy than another when it jumps a fence, it will have a similar effect. On top of all that, it is amazing how a horse can change as it grows, in build, strength, mentality (mentality can change significantly with different people and surroundings). We bought a 5yo racehorse years ago and the transformation by the time she had been with us for a year was incredible. We also had a 148 cm pony on loan for Amanda to ride; When she tried him out it touched a fence, panicked and bolted and was almost unmanageable. With some nursing and love he improved in leaps and bounds and represented GB in international events. Just a couple of examples from experience of the points I have mentioned
     
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    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021

  11. NassauBoard

    NassauBoard Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, I always come back to the Inglis Drever versus Kasbah Bliss rivalry at the festival, and if you were talking about class then you would want to be with Kasbah Bliss every day of the week. He was a faster horse, he probably jumped a little better but when they met it was Inglis Drever who came out on top. That was because he relished a fight, he had a will to win and he battled.

    Class is all well and good, but it can't win a race on its own, you have to mix in all of the ingredients to win any graded race at the festival, you need to have stamina, enough speed to stay with the leaders when the race quickens and you need resolution under pressure. If you miss out any of these you get a Harchibald, or a Kasbah Bliss!

    The Supreme is a race that often throws up superb horses in the beaten places, because it is early in a horses career and it might not be the most suitable race for their characteristics. This year it does look to be all about Appreciate It who looks to have enough of the required attributes to dominate, but it could be that something else is stronger on the day, be it in jumping ability or resolution in a finish.

    A fascinating race currently with the Betfair and DRF yet to clear/muddy the water.
     
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  12. Tamerlo

    Tamerlo Well-Known Member

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    “A happy horse performs to a much higher level than an unhappy one.”
    Ron, I must have backed a load of miserable, depressive horses!<laugh>
     
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  13. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
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    <laugh>
     
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  14. Tamerlo

    Tamerlo Well-Known Member

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    Nass, I totally agree that resolution is a great quality in a racehorse and Cheltenham in particular lends itself to that attribute.
    Also, your comment about The Supreme is correct. <ok>
     
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  15. Ron

    Ron Well-Known Member
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    Yep. More factors, spot on
     
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  16. Sir Barney Chuckles

    Sir Barney Chuckles Who Dares Wins

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    I've given my views on that 'roar' on here many times in the past and it quite frankly does my head in. Once it used to be spontaneous, a delight and an outpouring of expectation but in recent terms it had become a stale 'after 3 everyone must do a half-hearted roar, 1-2=3...'. Big and serious question re 2021 though is will there be a canned version of said 'roar'?!?
     
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  17. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    I’d just go with Matt Chapman doing it - stylish and effective <ok>
     
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  18. Tamerlo

    Tamerlo Well-Known Member

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    Matt Chapman, ugh! An obstreperous pina colada. Give him a red cape and a sword - and stick him on the Pamplona bull run. <laugh>
     
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  19. OddDog

    OddDog Mild mannered janitor
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    Well we've had the entries and the Dublin Racing Festival since the last update. Firstly Leopardstown, where Appreciate It had little trouble winning the Grade 1 Chanelle Pharma Novice Hurdle at odds of 1/3 Fav. He made all and kept on galloping resolutely to the line, finishing 3 lengths ahead of Ballyadam (ran much better than at Christmas) with a further 3 back to Blue Lord (another solid effort and should be seen to better effect on spring ground). Appreciate It is now a general 7/4 fav for the Supreme whilst Ballyadam has also been cut to as low as 7/1 although some 11/1 is still available. Elsewhere it looks like Boothill is a non-runner (although I couldn't find any news on him - if anyone has heard anything then please share) and Dreal Deal is available at 20/1 after somewhat surprisingly winning the Moscow Flyer.

    On to the entries, and we had a total of 98 this year, but this is now 97 with Boothill scratched. Interestingly, there are seven 4 year olds entered and two of these - Zanahiyr and French Aseel - are quite prominent in the Supreme (as well as the Triumph market of course). There are also eight mares entered, including the exciting Gauloise (current favourite for the mares novices hurdle and unlikely to turn up here). I still wonder whether we might see one or two of these high class juveniles re-routed from the Triumph Hurdle to this. Appreciate It looks very solid but to me he is a grinder who will presumably set out to make all and, on spring ground I still think he might be vulnerable to a horse with a real change of gears.
     
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  20. Archers Road

    Archers Road Urban Spaceman

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    Indeed, "wants further" is just a tactful way of saying "slow" <ok>


    It used to pay to take o0n the favourite of this race, the shorter it was the more you wanted to get it beat, especially if it's from Ireland. Not sure that's been the case in recent years, sadly. It can't speak well for the competitiveness of the sport, or it's strength in depth, if favourites regularly win the biggest novice event in the sport.
     
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