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Off Topic Israel

Discussion in 'The Premier League' started by Commachio, May 14, 2021.

  1. Chief

    Chief Northern Simpleton
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    That's the world as we know it.

    Religion at the bottom of the large majority of needless conflict and slaughter.

    Utterly baffling.
     
    #461
  2. Lovearsenalcock

    Lovearsenalcock Homeboy
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    Almost styled it out

     
    #462
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  3. Sucky

    Sucky peoples champ & forum saviour

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    Yeh we need CK back in here to educate that yank dickhead @Welshie
     
    #463
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  4. Welshie

    Welshie Chavcunt fanboy dickhead

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    Who the ****s CK
     
    #464
  5. Diego

    Diego Lone Ranger

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    Calvin Kline mate, pretty famous <ok>
     
    #465
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  6. Sucky

    Sucky peoples champ & forum saviour

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    <laugh>
     
    #466
  7. Sucky

    Sucky peoples champ & forum saviour

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  8. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Thought I'd catch up on the thread and stopped at your post. Probably saved me having to read another 10 pages tbf

    Anyway, bit late but in response to some of your points:

    - The recent flare up has 3 or 4 main causes, which I will outline as briefly as possible:
    1) The eviction of Palestinian families from their homes in the Jerusalem neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah.
    This was done due to Israeli families bringing court-validated proof of ownership. Under Israeli law, a citizen can file a claim of ownership of land from which they were evicted by Jordan between 1948-1967. It is important to note that Palestinians cannot file similar claims. This is for two reasons: firstly, with the size of the Palestinian expat population appx the same size as the entire population of Israel, permitting such claims is seen as a threat to the integrity of the State as a Jewish one, and would lead to an unbearable strain on public infrastructure.
    While I don't agree with Israel's stance on this, I can understand why repealing the law would be totally impracticable. Perhaps a quota system allowing at least a percentage of Palestinians to return to their ancestral homes per year would be a good place to start and something I'd like to see.
    Secondly, Israel points to the fact that in the wake of its independence in 1948, appx 850,000 Jewish citizens of Muslim majority countries across the region were summarily evicted and to date have been denied the right to claim ownership of their ancestral homes in the likes of Iraq, Syria and Jordan. Again, I dislike the 'quid pro quo' approach here, but I do see both sides of the coin. Arguing one but not the other will appear - to the average Israeli - as hypocritical.


    You give reasons of a threat to Jewish identity for why Israel cannot give Palestinians the same right of return, and you use this as some sort of justification for their discriminatory actions, yet you fail to recognise that the same threat to integrity of Palestinian identity in Jerusalem is very much a reality. They are being systematically displaced.

    So no, sorry there’s no understanding here. Certainly not without understanding the Palestinians have been facing the same threat for decades but are powerless to do anything about it. The Palestinians don’t have any power or control over the rights of their identity and occupation in East Jerusalem when Israel can arbitrarily impose laws which dictate their rights over that of the Palestinians. So facing a threat to their identity, and without the same rights over residency, what do you expect them to do? What would you do?

    2) Extra security measures around Jerusalem's Old City and Al-Sharif during Ramadan.
    This has been a trigger point for as long as I can remember. Anyone who has visited the Old City will know instantly that it is NOT built to accommodate large crowds. Ottoman-era infrastructure with Medieval street size makes for a picturesque but terrible combination.
    Israeli police regularly set up additional security barriers and crowd control measures during Ramadan when crowds of worshippers are many times higher than usual. These barriers cause delays and inconvenience which in turn causes frustration which in turn causes tempers to rise.
    Security measures this year have been tighter than usual mainly due to Covid and the simultaneous situation in Sheikh Jarrah.


    This happened at the Damascus Gate. There’s no need for “extra security measures”. More than 100,000 to 200,000 people pass through that Gate in a day during Ramadan and it's been happening from time and memorial. There’s no crowd control issue. It’s always orderly and very calm. And historically when Israeli soldiers have made little fuss, there’s been little or no problem. Even during the year when Trump in his infinite wisdom decided to move the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem.

    What’s changed and raised tensions in recent years is the construction of an IDF watchtower at the gate and the decision this year to stick a barrier in the plaza in front of the gate so people couldn’t congregate. It just so happens that over the last couple of years Jerusalem Day has also fallen within Ramadan. It’s not been too troublesome but this year, putting up barriers to Palestinians whilst allowing Israeli nationalist to march through East Jerusalem to the Gate, to celebrate Jerusalem Day was clearly seen as yet another double standard and a provocation.

    3) Palestinian and Israeli general elections.
    Same title, very different reasons which I will elaborate in turn.
    Mahmoud Abbas, nominal leader of the Palestinians and head of the Fatah party recently called for the first GE in over 15 years. Being as it is that he was only ever elected for a 4 year term (in Jan 2005), the news of an election was greeted with understandable enthusiasm by the Palestinian people.
    However, for numerous reasons Mr Abbas decided to postpone these elections. Many are of the opinion that he fears a Hamas victory in the West Bank. Hamas knows this. It is crucial that they present themselves as the true protectors of the Palestinian people. You may have noticed their flag flown quite prominently from the roof of Al-sharif and Al-aqsa. They are playing their role excellently.


    And why is it that? Because Fatah is corrupt as fck and Abbas is a weak stooge, whilst Hamas is rightly seen by many Palestinians as a grass roots movement that provides welfare and services that make a real difference to the most impoverished on the ground.

    On the other side, Israel has just held its 4th inconclusive election in 2 years. Its electoral system - proportional representation - is highly democratic (far more so than the FPTP system we have in this country), guaranteeing representation to even the smallest political parties. However, the by product of this voting system is that coalition governments are almost inevitable. And unlike coalitions in this country which tend to be 2 parties and no more, Israel's coalitions can be built from as many as 7 or 8 different parties. This then grants disproportionate influence to politicians who often only represent a tiny minority of Israelis, as they become kingmakers.
    It is also a reason why Israel has been drifting to the political right over the past 15 years. At the center of this is Netanyahu. Loved by half of Israel, despised by the other half. But even his fiercest critics acknowledge that when it comes to security and defence, he is peerless. The Iran threat looming over the entire region has fuelled his power base. And as a centre-right politician, Netanyahu will naturally gravitate to right-wing parties to form a coalition. And those parties will often refuse to enter government without certain provisions. Common examples of these tend to be related to expansion of settlements, a strong stance against Iran and its proxies in the region (i.e. Hamas and Hezbollah), and a guarantee of a more religious character of the state. The current conflict certainly suits Netanyahu, as he can turn around and say 'look, you need me'. It is no coincidence that Naftali Bennet - leader of the Yamina party and therefore holder of a potential game-changing 7 seats in the Knesset, came out 2 days ago in a dramatic u-turn and said he would re-consider sitting in a coalition government with Netanyahu despite running on a ballot that promised he would do no such thing.


    It’s a mess, but this debacle has been caused by Israel changing its constitution 25 years ago and creating a situation where minority parties literally dictate the most extreme policies and rhetoric when it comes to Palestinians and minorities including some abhorrent homophobic **** which is as bad as anything you’ll see in some Arab countries. Yamina has only 7 seats, but their leader is actually being backed to become Prime Minister. That’s how fcked up the system is - that this could even be considered a reality in a democratic state.

    - Some observations on the Palestinian position:
    1) It is important to understand that the Palestinian population lives in two distinct areas, under two distinct governments, yet they very much share the same social 'soul' and historical narrative. Whereas Fatah officially recognises Israel's right to exist, the Hamas charter and constitution calls for Israel's total destruction. Therefore, when we talk about a "two-state solution", it is crucial to understand that many of Israel's right-wing parties, plus Hamas, don't actually want one and it is therefore naive of us in the West to sit here speaking about it as if it is gospel. It isn't.


    Yeh this is the ‘go to’ rhetoric we get quite a lot. Hamas’s charter - words on paper. It’s used by those who want to divert away from and shut down any move towards dialogue and peace rather than encourage it.

    Hamas is far more considered than you give them credit for. Even when Hamas was opposed to the Oslo Accords it adopted a “wait and see” approach. Why? Because regardless of the propaganda, Hamas very much follows the desire of the people they govern and when the majority of Palestinians saw hope of peace through the Oslo Accords, Hamas respected those wishes. Why? Because Hamas at its core spends its time dedicated to social welfare and delivering infrastructure and services to the poorest and disadvantaged in Palestinian territories. Whether that's in healthcare and medical treatment, housing, jobs, food and water, education, and financial aid to the most needy in one of the poorest, deprived part of the world.

    Whether it’s their actions during the Oslo Accords or whether its as recent as 4 years ago when a number of their leaders and even the Charter you quoted, have moved to a position of recognising the 1967 borders, the point is, it’s wrong to keep brushing aside the realism of a two state solution by being absolute in your views about what Hamas will or won’t do. Why not start the process, include them in talks and then see what happens?

    As for the Israel’s right wing parties, as stated above that’s a problem of Israel’s own making. They changed their own constitution in the 90’s so that minority tin-pot right wing extremist parties get to be king makers in the Knesset and hold to ransom moderate governments so that none can move forward towards any two state solution. It’s also why no Party can hold on to power longer than a few months or years.

    2) The Hamas/Fatah civil war (2004-6) made what was already the single biggest obstacle in the path to a two-state solution even more impossible. The problem is, creating a contiguous link between Gaza and the West Bank would mean literally slicing Israel in half. And by 'Israel' here, I mean internationally undisputed Israel as mandated by the UN in 1948. Road, tunnel, airport, it is irrelevant - the fact that any such link would inevitably and unavoidably be controlled (at least on one side) by a party that is committed to Israel's destruction means that the latter cannot and will not agree to it.

    Your last sentence once again gives away your position on all this. And all you’ve done again is throw up more obstacles to reinforce a notion that it’s pointless to pursue a two-state solution.

    What you’ve described here is irrelevant. The 1967 borders which is the blueprint for any two state solution and which pretty much everyone considers the starting point, has no “slicing of Israel”. Show me the contiguous link between the two territories in the picture below…

    please log in to view this image



    3) Hamas and Fatah only hate Israel more than they hate each other. There is really no need to elaborate on this.

    So what if they do? Another reason to give up and not bother?

    And tbh yes it is worth elaborating. Pretty much every political organisation in Israel and the Palestinian West Bank is corrupt as fck. Whether it’s Netanyahu or Abbas... the Likud Party or Fatah. Hamas may not be whiter than white and the propaganda machine is doing a fine job of painting them as somehow worse than every other player in the game, but they’re probably the most honest and straightforward of the lot.

    4) My own love for the Palestinian people and their cause stops firmly with Hamas, a movement which frankly terrifies me. It is true that the Gaza strip is one of the most densely populated regions on the globe, but no more so than Manhattan. What Hamas does is the equivalent of placing rocket launchers and military camps in the middle of Wall Street rather than Central Park. It also pains me to the bottom of my heart to see that while it is capable of digging tunnels and military bunkers to depths of more than 30 meters, it apparently can't be bothered to dig bomb shelters for its civilian population to protect them from Israeli air strikes.

    Hamas terrifies you. A bit of balance wouldn’t go amiss here. They hold fck all power in the grand scheme of things. But Otzma Yehudit or Religious Zionist Party or Yamina who actually hold power and influence what happens in Palestinian territories which amounts to nothing short of ethnic cleansing, don’t terrify you? The 1000+ Palestinian civilians killed and 80,000+ civilans injured, all by Israeli ammunition and air strikes in the past 6 years AFTER the last Gaza offensive don’t frighten you?

    Comparing the situation in Gaza to Manhattan is also mindboggling. When Manhattan is under illegal occupation by a foreign power by means of air, land and sea blockade, when its skies are patrolled by helicopter gunships, when its citizens, goods imports and medicine have to go through military checkpoints, when their exports completely stopped, when it has 12 hours electricity per day, and little or clean water – all thanks to an illegal blockade condemned under international law, when its citizens have had their homes destroyed, and half its population live under poverty line… then we’ll see if the good folk of Manhattan plant rocket launchers and military camps in the middle of Wall Street and you can make the comparison. There’s no Central Park in Gaza mate, just rubble.

    In answer to your question specifically about bomb shelters, try reading this… https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2014/0717/Why-Gaza-doesn-t-have-bomb-shelters

    - Some observations on the Israeli position:

    1) Many hundreds of thousands if not millions of Israeli citizens will evoke ancient history when speaking about the conflict, tracing the Jewish story in the land back to biblical times. In my experience, calling these people 'mad' or 'bigoted' isn't particularly useful. It is far more constructive to sit down and try to understand their position, as they are unlikely to budge from it due to international pressure.

    How useful is it when talking about Palestinians? A constructive approach to Israelis with discriminatory views based on religious dogma but let’s write off any constructive dialogue with Palestinians who do the same because they’re beyond help?

    2) The chemistry of Israel's population has shifted significantly in the past two decades toward the right wing. There are more than a dozen excellent reasons why this has happened. I will list those that have been mentioned to me most often by my contacts there:
    - The Iranian threat.
    - The perception that Israel is now a partisan issue in the US (see below)
    - The result of no longer seeing or trusting the 'peace process' after so many failed attempts.
    - A series of incompetent leaders on the Israeli left of the political spectrum. (To illustrate: in 1992 the Labour party held 44 seats and sat in government. In 2020 they held just 3 seats.)


    *the propaganda induced perception of an Iranian threat.

    *two failed attempts more than 20+ years ago, failed as a result of one man (and a great man I might add) being assassinated by one of their own.

    3) Despite what you might read or see online, the vast majority of Israelis are peaceful, lovely people (if a bit argumentative and arrogant). As mentioned above, the Israeli population is very much divided, and Netanyahu the figurehead is what divides them. Whilst his power base is significant and drifting ever-more to the right, it is widely believed that a majority of Israelis don't want him as Prime Minister and would rally around a competent centre-left leader if such a leader emerged. Israelis agree that Netanyahu can deliver security, but he can't (or won't) deliver peace. And there is a world of difference between the two modes of existence. The issue is, Israel's voting system has undermined itself by being too democratic, making it extremely difficult to actually oust him and his generation of politician from the Knesset. His personal support is dwindling, but it will take time - plus a very strong opponent - for a fresh voice with fresh ideas to come to the podium. I believe Israel desperately needs this as it has ignored the peace process for far too long simply for lack of willingness and fresh ideas - a reality that suits Netanyahu and his coalition partners, but not swathes of the Israeli populace.

    Agreed.

    - Some observations on the International position:
    1) The latest conflict didn't emerge suddenly, in a vacuum. What we are seeing is the end product of almost 15 years of pathological failure on the part of the international community. UN sanctions and summons to the Hague clearly aren't the answer. Any and all progress ever made in bringing peace to the region has needed 3rd-part brokers who are able to weigh up equally the needs and sensitivities of both sides. 8 years of Obama and Kerry gave the region indifferent and blundering chaos. 4 years of Trump and Tillerson/Pompeo gave the region clear Israel bias. Meanwhile across the pond, the EU has been far too preoccupied with Brexit to be able to focus on the region in any meaningful way. Like parents leaving toddlers in a room unsupervised, the real vacuum here is the vacuum of diplomatic input, and so the peace process has stagnated badly in that time frame, with Abbas and Netanyahu not on direct speaking terms since 2014. Which is nuts.

    Agreed. But perhaps Western sanctions like those imposed on South African would have greater impact. Maybe the U.S. Congress can enact a law similar to the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act it did in 1986? Yes I can hear you laughing..

    The best way of achieving any real success towards a peaceful settlement can only come about through covert, behind doors negotiations between ALL stakeholders including Hamas. No pre-conditions, everyone comes with their batshit crazy ideas and that’s the starting point... and nobody leaves until compromise and an agreement is reached.
     
    #468
  9. Welshie

    Welshie Chavcunt fanboy dickhead

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    #469
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  10. Sucky

    Sucky peoples champ & forum saviour

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    Yeah worth fetching for you I reckond.

    Trebs 1st mistake was lack of paragraphs. That's a massive turn off from the start.

    His second was that he's a Manc **** and I'm just gonna say "lol did not read dickhead". & Fellow Manc **** @Diego chucks him a sympathy like as if he read all that **** <laugh>
     
    #470
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  11. Welshie

    Welshie Chavcunt fanboy dickhead

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    It's probs a bit too long for a University dissertation what Trebs just popped on here, so of course I didn't read it

    but like, I appreciate the efforts going into this topic

    tbh i'm going more inline with @Tel on this and think they're all a bit ****ing retarded and let the bombs fly baby

    CK tho, made me think something if Hamas can build these big ass deep tunnels, why the **** hasnt Gaza got bomb shelters

    didn't even think about it, good point
     
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  12. Sucky

    Sucky peoples champ & forum saviour

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    Cos Yanks bruv.
    Always Yanks.

    And I agree with Tel too but we can't all just say the obvious it's boring.
     
    #472
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  13. Lovearsenalcock

    Lovearsenalcock Homeboy
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    Too much feeling sorry for the Jews by the so called ‘civilised’ world since WW2 has gotten to their heads and now due to the guilt of the West for letting it get to that, they will watch the same happen to others at the hands of Jews but we best not say anything because they are a sensitive bunch
     
    #473
  14. Bwood_Ranger

    Bwood_Ranger 2023 Funniest Poster

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    Give it a go. See if I burst into tears.
     
    #474
  15. Lovearsenalcock

    Lovearsenalcock Homeboy
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    you’ll just ignore the post when it hits the button...seen that one before aswell
     
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  16. Bwood_Ranger

    Bwood_Ranger 2023 Funniest Poster

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    It’s hard to post through tears man.
     
    #476
  17. Lovearsenalcock

    Lovearsenalcock Homeboy
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    This is the best tear shut down I’ve seen in a long time

     
    #477
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  18. Sucky

    Sucky peoples champ & forum saviour

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    Brilliant.

    Nothin like seeing a stupid yank bitch get shut down.
     
    #478
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  19. Lovearsenalcock

    Lovearsenalcock Homeboy
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    ‘I don’t respect that anymore’

    code for

    ‘**** gonna get real bitch’
     
    #479
  20. Lovearsenalcock

    Lovearsenalcock Homeboy
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