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Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v West Ham United

Discussion in 'Tottenham Hotspur' started by PleaseNotPoll, Oct 22, 2021.

  1. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    We're also a manager short of playing that (or any) system effectively because the one we have at present doesn't quite know what he's doing.

    He's actually managing to make an attack that has two of the best attacking players in Europe look distinctly average, that's a gift and a curse in equal measure. Though it's no less than many of us on here and in general expected.

    You hire an uninspiring manager known for conservative football and you get exactly that.
     
    #301
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  2. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter how good the players up top are if the team isn't getting the ball to them, and this is where our midfield is failing us and leaving us too reliant on our FBs to open up teams and if they don't...well, look at Pacos or Vitesse for evidence of what happens when we don't have attacking FBs on the pitch

    If we had a creative midfielder in the middle of the pitch, in either a 433 or 4231, our attacking play would become more expansive overnight as somebody would be directing play through the middle, while at the moment we're reacting to the play even when we have the ball hence there's a lot of recycling going on and not very much moving into space to receive the ball - and this is hardly unique to Nuno, because the last few months of Poch's tenure also saw the same issues

    Of course, doing that means dropping one of Skipp or Hojbjerg if we play 4231 - although suddenly it makes 433 a more tempting option...
     
    #302
  3. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    We could probably have Modric in this team but with Nuno at the helm he wouldn't be as effective as he could be. A conservative manager won't allow creative players to excel, the style of football just won't suit them. Nuno wants to punt it long and hope for the best, after having knocked it side to side for minutes.

    We've got the manager who's a poor imitation of the one we sacked and we were all glad he was sacked because of the style of football he implemented. Nothing's going to change until Nuno's given the boot and this club hires a semi-competent attack minded manager.

    The XI he picked on Sunday has enough goals and creativity in it to at least get by and resemble a football team. Especially as he chose to rest every single one of them midweek. There was no excuses for that result and performance, he put all his eggs in that basket by the decisions he made on Thursday and it still didn't pay off. Sooner he's gone the better.
     
    #303
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  4. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    Here's the thing about managers with conservative reputations: they can play expansive football when they want to, but the first sign of problems sees them retreat into the comfort zone of keeping it tight and grinding out results

    For one example, look at Villas-Boas. When he was at Porto he was playing expansive stuff, which is what got him on Chelsea's radar, which happened because he had Joao Moutinho and James Rodriguez available (while also having to play a whole four games a season in the Primeira Liga...) which was light and day compared to his stint with us and especially Marseille, and this is putting his stints at Zenit and Shanghai SIPG to one side due to Zenit effectively being similar to Porto and Shanghai being...well, the Chinese Super League

    Similar can be said of the ubermensch, because in both stints at Chelsea he has played expansive football, his first stint when he had Robben and Duff tearing down the flanks and the second right up until we tonked them 5-2, and after both of those he retreated into grinding out wins with an entire season's worth of Don Revie-esque niggly fouls every game

    And that's certainly what's happening with Nuno, best summed up by the Palace game where he responded to the international break decimating the team by retreating within, and it got worse when Dier got crocked early on, so what the team needs is a reason for him to not do so - and that's where the lack of a genuinely creative player in the middle is causing problems, because without one he seems to believe we have only DMs available judging by how Skipp and Hojbjerg are deployed and has us playing like we did in those games when we had to line up with a pivot of Dier and Wanyama when in reality that's not what we have

    Although that doesn't explain how Lucas was less an inverted winger and more a box-to-box CM yesterday, that one has me utterly stumped...
     
    #304
  5. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    And look at those sides, the best side in Portugal and the team with the most money in England.

    When a manager's at the best team or has unlimited finances they can build a side that wins a lot and appeases fans.

    Put Jose in charge of Tottenham and look what happened, now we've got the guy who's even worse than Jose and we're getting what many expected.

    He's not gonna change, he can't improve a single player, he can't get us playing in any noticeable style, his persona matches his playing style - boring - and if you struggle to even get Kane and Son firing then something's really wrong.

    He left Wolves and was approached only by Palace before we swooped in... Tells us everything we need to know. Paratici ****ed it and the quicker he rectifies the mistake the quicker we can hopefully move forward with the right manager (though knowing us we'd go on to hire the B-tech Nuno, whoever that may be). The team is nowhere near where it used to be and it's likely gonna take ages until we are but there's a still a nucleus of players capable of playing in a manner that'd keep fans satisfied for a while, under him they're not doing so. He simply has to go, giving him another window and more signings just prolongs our suffering.
     
    #305
  6. Lovearsenalcock

    Lovearsenalcock Homeboy
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    Jose would be doing better…our best players would be smashing it our **** ones would still be ****.

    A lot of Spurs fans forgot to be careful what they wished for when they wanted him sacked.

    Either way…every manager is doomed for eventual failure with the way we run things as a club that’s why I cba laying into Nuno too much but I agree, it’s only a matter of time before he goes.

    I eagerly await the next chump to take up the poisoned chalice.
     
    #306
  7. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    Probably, like me, a number of us thought that we couldn't possibly **** up appointing a coach who fitted the club's needs, one of Potter or ten Hag, for instance. Levy knew he was in a ****ing hole and his end of season grovelling statement indicated that he knew he had to do something about it and that had to include better football and hope.

    Never, in my worst nightmares, did I think that we'd go anywhere near Gatusso, but like signing Raziak or loaning in Frazier 'Bloody' Campbell, it's where you end up if you **** around for too long and run out of options.

    Nuno was appointed as a temp, because nobody, who was any good, wanted the job by then and we had to do something. It was becoming an impossible situation, as there was going to be no first team coach to take pre-season training. Appointing him kicked the can down the road 12 months, giving the club time to do...

    I have no ****ing idea, other than prey that Poch gets sacked and wants to come back? If Gatusso was an option, anything's possible. Nuno's as unsuitable as Mourinho was. He's less toxic as far as the players are concerned but the football's as bad and, as we're going nowhere, our fans have rightly had enough of this ****. The anger is cumulative because the failures are.
     
    #307
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  8. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    There have been rumours, albeit without much substance, that the players really don’t like him.

    In one sense it’d be no surprise as they don’t seem to like anyone, we’ve seen similar stories about Poch and Jose with some of these players but equally he does come across an extremely dull and boring guy and it doesn’t feel like he has any connection/ relationship with them. For many years you could see players loved Poch and under Jose he held the respect of the more senior players like Lloris, Kane, Son and Hojbjerg too.

    It’s hard to see where the club really does go though after this. I think his sacking is pretty inevitable and the club will just look ridiculously stupid after giving all the speech about DNA/ attacking football etc. Realistically it only feels like things are gonna get a lot worse before we see any forward movement.

    I’ve never been ENIC out and I still don’t class myself as such but I really can’t see a positive future at the moment. A change may be the only thing to stop the rut.
     
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  9. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    My fear is that the gap between us and success is growing exponentially. We didn't strike while the iron was hot - when Klopp was still in the early stages of building his team, as was Pep, Chelsea and United were in disarray and City hadn't yet hit their stride. The sweet spot to strike gold was 2016-2019. We didn't do it.

    And if we'd only been able to tread water since then and remain a top 4 regular or thereabouts, I wouldn't be so fearful. But what has happened over the past 3 seasons is that we have regressed while teams who not so long ago finished below us have improved. So the gap is growing in both directions.

    With Newcastle now becoming relevant, by the time we start making sensible decisions (if ever), we will need 2 teams to severely mess up to make the top 4 and 5 teams to mess up to have a chance for the title. It is unlikely to the point of being impossible - and that is without even taking into account the likes of West Ham and Leicester.

    I know I'm being typically pessimistic but whereas 10 years ago there were only really 2 teams to catch, there are now 4 and this will very shortly be 5. I hope we haven't missed the boat.
     
    #309
  10. humanbeingincroydon

    humanbeingincroydon Well-Known Member

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    The problem with the ubermensch (okay, one of the problems...) was at no point did he ever consider having a midfield, which is why we were habitually overrun and had a defence that showed signs of PTSD. Compared to the other teams he's been in charge of, where's he had the likes of Makalele, Essien, Zanetti, Cambiaso and Khedira in there, that demonstrates how he was applying his tactics without regarding the players he had available, because if we had a player on a similar level to prime Essien we might have actually had the ball for more than ten minutes of any match

    In comparison Nuno is clearly trying to adapt, but adapting only goes so far if we don't have an equivalent to Neves or Moutinho which his system requires - although the way that Sonny and Lucas at various points appear to be playing in a very different match to their teammates, as Lucas was on Sunday as he effectively left Emerson stranded on the right due to cutting inside constantly, that's more of a concern
     
    #310

  11. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    This is why I'd rather we take the ECL seriously. We do have a genuine chance of winning this competition. We have no hope of winning the league, no hope of top four whilst top six certainly isn't a given either. Man City own the League Cup. The FA Cup is a competition all clubs want to win and we're about 8th favourites for it, 14th with our current manager. So realistically the ECL is the one competition we can actually feel relatively positive about. Is it the competition we wanted to be in? No. But we're in it and it's our best chance of silverware as well as a guarantee in the Europa for the following season.

    I think it's reasonable to be pessimistic, there's literally nothing to be optimistic about other than the potential of Oli Skipp. We've got a hierarchy constantly making poor decisions, a DoF who's started poorly with his managerial appointment, a manager so uninspiring and boring I'd rather have our former rookie back in charge, a lot of absolutely dog **** players whom many fans feel no connection towards and to top it off we get financially ripped off in the process.
     
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  12. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    He's not adapting to anything. He's just putting players together and hoping for the best. The man's worse than I initially thought and I didn't have high expectations of him in the first place.

    We win unconvincingly, lose convincingly and there's zero signs of that improving under him. He gave the first XI a whole week to prepare for Sunday and somehow in the second half West Ham were easily more lively than we were, despite a good few of theirs playing midweek. Painfully out of his depth.
     
    #312
  13. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    Unless ENIC get an insane offer or we lose out on an NFL franchise, they're going to own us for years to come. I've long since come to terms with that, to the point that I probably can't even properly count myself as ENIC out.

    However, as they're going to stay, they need to be pressured into putting football above property development and the NFL stuff. Either they sell off some of the projects that they've been stockpiling or they put some money into the club to fund a manager and players, who will stop the decline. It's the one part of the Arsenal stadium build that they've not learned from. Going back 5 years or so, I genuinely thought that would happen, that it didn't was a huge mistake.

    Until that happens, I'm not putting a single penny into the club that I've supported and that sentiment is growing with each terrible decision and result. A more suitable manager will definitely get more out of these players, but if Levy's going to say this again...

    "We are absolutely clear that central to our ambitions is a successful football team – it is what we all crave. We have come close over the last seven seasons and everyone’s focus is on a return to regular Champions League participation and competing for honours."

    ...it's going to need ENIC to change the way that the club's run, because right now, who believes it?
     
    #313
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  14. Citizen Kane.

    Citizen Kane. Well-Known Member

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    I don't think winning the ECL will do much if anything to raise the club's profile though.

    And i also don't share your assessment of how easy it will be for us to win it. Difficult fixtures on awful pitches await us in the winter. Then there are the likes of Rennes, Basel and Roma who on their day can beat us even when we're at full strength. And then when Europa teams drop in that'll add another 2 or 3 threats into the mix.

    Winning it more likely than anything will provide Levy with yet another plaster to paper over the cracks as it will keep fans quiet for another year.

    Right now i just do not know where we go next and I don't think the club has known either for quite some time. It really does appear that Plan A right now is for Poch to come back in the summer, a decision which again buys Levy yet another year of relative goodwill and brings with it huge risks, not least of all the fact that Poch did play a significant role in sowing the seeds of our downfall.
     
    #314
  15. Dier Hard

    Dier Hard G'day mate!

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    It’s not the profile I care about though, I as a fan just want to enjoy some silverware. Everyone knows winning this won’t mean anything to the wider footballing world and some rivals will even mock it but I’d rather try and win the thing and be mocked for winning it than be mocked for being embarrassingly knocked out, which I truly fear we’re in danger of at the moment.

    Roma are the only team minus the Europa dropouts that we truly need to fear. Rennes and Basil aren’t on our level and with a competent manager we beat both. We have the two standout players in the competition and probably the best keeper in it too, amongst other players who’d comfortably make the XIs of most others. In ECL equivalents, us and Roma are the Bayern and City of the CL.

    As for where we go beyond this season, that’s anyone’s guess. We’re a mess and there’s no arguing that, it’s the lowest and most poisonous it’s been at this club for a long while and going to games feels like a chore than an enjoyment for me nowadays. Winning the ECL would at least provide the fans a small bit of positivity though, we’re not in with a genuine chance of winning anything else this season and top six is not guaranteed either.
     
    #315
  16. "Thanks for that Brian"

    "Thanks for that Brian" Well-Known Member

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    Putting aside the major issue of Poch's decline in effectiveness after 2017, and I will factor in the draining effect of Wembley in that, if we do reappoint him, what happens with Paratici? Poch was said to be completely opposed to working with/for a DoF and I doubt that his spell at PSG will have endeared that set up to him.

    So, either he starts with a set up that he doesn't want or we junk Paratici, neither of which are ideal, as post Paul Mitchell, the Levy/Poch/Hitchen transfer triumvirate wasted an awful lot of money and seemingly, competed on who could pick the biggest lemon.

    Right now, going back to Poch looks like another suspect decision, because unless both he and Levy are going to radically change their stances, it's going to end up in a pretty speedy second divorce and further decline.
     
    #316
  17. Alfie Conn

    Alfie Conn Well-Known Member

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    How well would Vinny have fitted in with Sunday's side , nobody could pass like this lad , Vinny Sideways

    IMG_20211027_160219.jpg
     
    #317
  18. PleaseNotPoll

    PleaseNotPoll Well-Known Member
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    Turned into an absolute butcher in Spain, judging by his disciplinary record.
    Got sent off 10 times for Las Palmas and picked up dozens of yellows.
    Maybe the heat got to him?
     
    #318
  19. O.Spurcat

    O.Spurcat Well-Known Member

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    Probably my favourite Spurs shirt.
     
    #319
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  20. remembercolinlee

    remembercolinlee Well-Known Member

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    Would make a great thread...might do it...Will save me from yet more half term painting <laugh>
     
    #320
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