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Official Not606 USA GP Chat and Predictions

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by EternalMSC, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    I think the first challenge would be expanding the grid to the 30+ cars that a split series would require. To achieve that there would need to be a redistribution of prize money, and probably allow customer cars. In the very likely scenario that B Class teams would earn less prize money than 9th place in the current championship, you'd need a way to significantly reduce the costs to those teams. I'd prefer customer cars to "Ferrari B" as it would make promotion/relegation more straightforward, but either would potentially work.

    The B Class would also occupy a lot of the same territory as GP2 currently does. It would become the best place to put unproven talent, and a clear stepping stone to F1 proper. Customer B-class teams wouldn't be a lot different to GP2 outfits, so I'd expect GP2 to be killed off by the migration of GP2 teams to F1 B.

    Alternatively, Bernie buys out a struggling F1 team, and uses their 2015 design as the new chassis for GP2/F1-B. They sell the 2015 chassis at the same price as the current GP2 car, so F1-B takes over from GP2 as most teams would probably jump across. Perhaps cut F1-A races to 80% their current distance, and have the FOM feed cover F1-A and a shorter F1-B race so both get similar exposure.
     
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  2. cosicave

    cosicave Well-Known Member

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    dhel:
    In my view, if Bernie had suggested that, many people might wonder if they'd been caught in some kind of time-warp, back to a time when he suggested things genuinely in the interests of our sport. What matters is that F1 retains as many different teams as possible; so, in my opinion, if any idea helps rather than hinders such a vision, it should be applauded.


    Looking at it from the other end of the argument – that of 'three cars per team' – this should really only be a consideration if or when there are too few teams to fill a grid designed for approximately 24-26 cars with only two cars (maximum) each; it should not be set as a goal which, in itself, discourages or threatens the existence of the less well-financed. I also like the idea of optional one-car teams; however, there are practical difficulties in accommodating such a well-principled idea.

    But we should remember that Bernie is essentially a farmer whose interest is not so much philanthropic but rather to maximise yield for his farm (estate); and the quality of his (somewhat skimmed) milk does not matter so long as people have no choice but to keep buying it.

    It's also interesting to see recent comments which mention Martin Whitmarsh. He's a 'moderate'; a good guy, relatively unselfish – with a big view of what's better for all; and who found himself perceived as 'a thorn in the side' whilst battling a self-serving establishment built on a rather different philosophy. Little wonder then that the words 'banished', and 'vanished' are so similar…


    Good post dhel.
     
    #62
  3. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    So would you say Whitmarsh was trying to be the hero F1 needs, but not the one it deserves?

    Not sure how far I can push the Whitmarsh=Batman analogy...
     
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  4. TomTom94

    TomTom94 Well-Known Member

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    I'm imagining Bernie and Tamara as a kind of Joker/Harley Quinn combo. Yeesh.

    On the subject of unsung heroes, I discovered today that it was only a lasting agreement with Mosley that meant the team in last place got some prize money up until a couple of seasons ago. May not have liked everything the man did, but... he looked out for the little guy occasionally. Something Todt could do to learn.
     
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  5. El_Bando

    El_Bando Can't remember, where was I?
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    I think F1 has failed to understand what the lower teams give. And it's no secret they were unwanted for some reason. I think F1 has lost touch of being any form of sport at all now and has become a greedy cash grab for the already wealthy.

    If the fans had their way then it would be an awesome sport. Even Dhel.
     
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  6. Eat Sleep Watch F1 Repeat

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    Would FOTA have helped prevent this? I doubt it, Bernie's prices for simply surviving in F1 are ridiculous. It's sad state of affairs and it's quite sickening for Marussia especially after recent events. I worry for Sauber and Lotus now.
     
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  7. Mrcento

    Mrcento Active Member

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    Key point there for me,

    The focus of the bigwigs is entirely on those fighting for wins and podiums, they don't give a damn about anybody but the grande teams. They "sell" F1 as a brand where Ferrari, McLaren, Williams and now Red Bull do battle, they don't sell it as "hey, Force India and Sauber.........cawwww" let alone Marussia and Caterham etc.

    The smaller/private teams though are every bit as much the lifeblood of the sport. Not only as a proving ground for drivers of the future, bit for engineers and mechanics too.

    Think Alonso and Webber in a Minardi.

    Think the double diffuser that was actually designed by Super Aguri engineers.

    You could even go as far as Jordan winning races against McLaren and Ferrari at their most dominant (collectively).

    Some parts of the Ferrari this year actually got changed to copy Marussia, after Ferrari engineers were more impressed by solutions they came up with during the install of the Ferrari engine in the Marussia, they copied them on the works car, etc etc.

    The problem with the small teams in a sporting/competitive sense is in the regulations IMO, there is no real scope for proper creativity. They are so tight, the big teams just hire all the best people to perfect things to the regulations, pretty much every team runs almost the same solutions, just some can pour more cash into making them work better than others. Which just further limits and chance small teams have to compete with the big boys and earn prize money.

    Self preservation, society.
     
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  8. dhel

    dhel Well-Known Member

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    lol
     
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  9. dhel

    dhel Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I really think that having a B class championships running the same time it would be very good for the young very good rookies that are not getting a fair shake right now. Also the prize money would not be on the same level as the first ten team's with the points in the A class but it should be enough to drive them to overtake some of the establish teams in the A class. I believe that will give the ones of the B class a serious goal and also give the rookies an incentive to achieve and do their best. Instead right now those guys who are driving for the lowers teams seem to be just going through the motion week after week with no real incentive to push them that extra mile. It would also push the teams close to relegation an incentive too because they wouldn't want to be overtaken by the B class teams and the drivers in A class wouldn't want to be shown up by lower class drivers. That would make the races that more interesting on two levels.. There would be lots of things going on and lots to follow during the year. And paid drivers who are not performing well will quite easily be shown up by the rookies in the lower division...and they should be able to face relegation too not just the teams. Just my opinion.
     
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  10. cosicave

    cosicave Well-Known Member

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    An interesting question, DHC. One which, I feel, any real attempt to answer opens a huge can of worms. Anyone for politics? Or, alternatively: anyone for Robin Hood?

    Well, here's one angle some may agree, or disagree with…
    Leaving McLaren aside for a moment, I feel it's a shame Whitmarsh has vanished/been banished from F1. His position within FOTA – the only (briefly) effective voice perceived as a potential 'stand up for our rights' challenge to Bernie – was all-but essential to its existence. Therefore Bernie, Ferrari and Red Bull found it in their interests that such a philanthropist not be there. Indeed, this may even have eventually included (albeit to a lesser extent) McLaren!; and may go some way to explain a few key differences with Big Ron.

    I believe these factors were ultimately a consequence of the way F1 shares its revenue; and what is needed – and has been needed for many, many years – is a thorough shake up. Of course, just as within real-world politics, such a shake up will be vehemently resisted by the most powerful, since they perceive themselves as having little or nothing to gain through change, whilst standing to lose the most. The closest approach to 'revolution' was an opportunity missed: it came at the time when the possibility of a breakaway series became a genuine concern for (i.e. threat to) Bernie. Ever the businessman of course, Bernie immediately provoked a squabble amongst F1's biggest (i.e. perceived as most important) teams. I believe this potential for disagreement was deliberately engineered to polarize opinion amongst those who, if they were to get together, might otherwise steam-roller Bernie's empire. Nonetheless, there was an opportunity.

    Back to the present, we find the status quo within F1 (which out-manoeuvred and survived the above) little changed and also, perhaps not dissimilar to ye olde worlde politics of early colonialism and empire, and the exploitation of the weak/powerless by the Strong/Powerful (sic). Similarly, if F1 is to survive in the very long term, eventually a revolution surely must occur. In the mean-time, any emperor/king who commands all will do his utmost to preserve a system that serves and preserves His own blood-line. No prizes for guessing which teams He's (ahem) 'friendliest' with. Yep; they're the wealthiest
    *; just as might be a venue He hand-shakes to a place on His calendar or worse, seemingly on a whim, doubles in value – where once again we see 'divide and conquer' tactics which bully and coerce others into fighting amongst themselves through a sense of jealousy or injustice!

    Now, I don't want to go overboard on the pros and cons of political philosophies or F1's similarities to any of them, but taken to the 'nth' degree, even the purist's ideal of 'survival of the fittest' becomes self-defeating when eventually finding no effective resistance or opposition – thus bringing about its own demise. (Push too hard against a door that opens too easily, and one is likely to fall amongst the debris of one's own making). Essentially, I believe this was Martin Whitmarsh's laudable standpoint.


    *Cynically, I'd like to add…
    …"So long as this doesn't include McLaren" … who have historically been the biggest threat to the favoured performer in His circus and therefore the biggest threat to Him personally as its ring-master. What a shame that even Max Mosley (who was rightly applauded earlier in this thread, and did have a peculiar overview of what was needed to keep the boat afloat) was essentially in league with this lop-sided, ultimately self-destructive thinking (which might also have explained his own failure!); something still actively endorsed and reinforced by a long standing membership well aware of who butters its bread. As MrCento suggests, this is all rather self-serving. And as I suggested in this post, it is something which ultimately must change if F1 is not to defeat itself.

     
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  11. allsaintchris.

    allsaintchris. Well-Known Member

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    F1 needs to take a long hard look at itself.

    The money it charges for a circuit to stage a race are crippling. How many new circuits have we lost in the last 5 years alone? Most of the tracks are uninspiring as they are all designed by one person.

    The spread of prize and commercial rights money is a joke, yet all the teams sign up to it, so they can't really complain. If the teams, all of the teams, had a real interest in the sport, they would boycott events until such time that the problems were fixed. However, the top teams hold the power and the money so have no benefit for doing this, until all the lower teams fold and by contract they have to run 3 cars and then it costs them money. Wanna bet they go back to Bernie then to renegotiate?

    Too many self interested parties in it now. Back in 1982, bringing Bernie in to stop Balestre from ruining the sport was a great idea, but he was allowed to wield too much power without anyone stopping him. People git rich, he git richer, why would they stop him?

    The runaway train is now about to derail. How many will survive?
     
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  12. El_Bando

    El_Bando Can't remember, where was I?
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    Also what will happen to Renault? They have now lost 2 customers and are now exclusive to the red bull teams who are always saying they are not happy with them and looking to move away
     
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  13. Smithers

    Smithers Well-Known Member
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    I think it will work in their favour, because the power unit can be solely designed for more of less one team. Whether it's financially viable is a pnother question.
     
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  14. TomTom94

    TomTom94 Well-Known Member

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    I hope Renault get some business back when their engine's up to speed.
     
    #74
  15. El_Bando

    El_Bando Can't remember, where was I?
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    It is up to speed. probably the 2nd best of the 3.

    As it stands though we have for 2016

    [TABLE="width: 500"]
    [TR]
    [TD]Mercedes[/TD]
    [TD]Ferrari[/TD]
    [TD]Renault[/TD]
    [TD]Honda[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Mercedes[/TD]
    [TD]Ferrari[/TD]
    [TD]Red Bull[/TD]
    [TD]Mclaren[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Williams[/TD]
    [TD]Sauber[/TD]
    [TD]Toro Rosso[/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Force India[/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Lotus[/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    Looks like Mercedes are going to have a huge mileage advantage on their units on top of the huge advantage they already have.
     
    #75
  16. EternalMSC

    EternalMSC Well-Known Member

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    Has Sauber got the investment they were looking for? Or is it an ongoing process yet.
     
    #76
  17. BrightLampShade

    BrightLampShade Well-Known Member
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  18. El_Bando

    El_Bando Can't remember, where was I?
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    Apparently the Austin organisers have put the wrong flag next to kvyats name on the garage. They put the Dutch flag instead of the Russian tri-colour. Maybe a mistake as the flags are similar or maybe they are getting ready for Verstappen early.
     
    #78
  19. El_Bando

    El_Bando Can't remember, where was I?
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  20. Max Whiplash

    Max Whiplash Well-Known Member

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    #80

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