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Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by JediCanary, Feb 7, 2020.
Robbie, with a post like that I'm wondering if you have ever seen us play this season!
Every game Dave, and in most cases I watch the full match replay too. Being in my 80s means I have the luxury of time! You want someone else's honest opinion? Will DF"s do? "We basically play with a second division team in the best league in the world" (his interview with NTV.de). So in DF's view, even at full strength we are "basically a second division team". To be truly competitive we need to be a "first division team". The interesting question is whether there is any good reason to think it will be any different the season after next if we get back up.
We may be a second division team but we have beaten the reigning Premiership champions and with a little bit of luck we could have and probably should have beaten the champions elect
I'd call that competitive
Sorry Robbie, but this is over the top IMHO. There may be some opposition fans who think that way, but not opposing coaches or teams.
Yes, I read that article, Robbie, but I saw DF's comments as 'we are playing with the players who won the Championship last season'. With the exception of Byram, none of the players we signed in the summer have had much impact on our results. Amadou had one good game against ManCity, but couldn't oust Tettey from DM. Fährmann is quality, but injuries and Krul's good form have kept him out. Duda and Rupp have had an impact since joining though and I'm hoping for more as the season goes on.
We're 2-1-2 in our last 5 games where the 2 losses were Spurs away and Liverpool by the finest of margins. Wolves and Leicester will be tough, but if we play the way we have been playing we can compete with them and hopefully pick up points as well. After that, 5 of the next 6 matches are the ones we must take points from, Arsenal away being the other. Those 5 are the ones which will show whether we've moved on or not. I like the balance between defence and attack we're showing now (unlike earlier in the season) and barring serial injuries from here on out the players can achieve the consistency that brings results. It may not happen but I'm hopeful that it will.
No apology needed CS. I'm not saying opposition teams will be thinking they only have to turn up to beat us; but they will, with every justification, be confident that, as long as they are on their own game, they can take the points. Why should they fear us? Only one of them, Watford, has found goals as hard to come by as we have, and all have better defensive records than us; they hold the advantage in experience, strength and, in most cases, fitness All they need to do is keep it tight and wait for us to gift them the inevitable scoring opportunity that will hand them the points (inevitable because of how we play).
Well, in that sense, Dave, you'd also be calling a giant-killing lower league team who beat, or came within a whisker of beating, a Premier League team in the FA Cup "competitive"! That's not what people mean when they try to take solace in our "being competitive" this season in the EPL. We aren't competitive, and our league position, results and team stats all go to show it. But we do play entertaining football.
Reading your post and Rick's post above it, brings to mind, for me, the saying "know how to win" or "learn how to win". We need to score those x-Goals and not hand out gifts. From your POV past is prologue until something changes. Rick is optimistic, thinking the changes have been made and we can push on. I'm in between the two: I'm hopeful every game. It would be no surprise if we won 4 or 5 of the last twelve but Farke's "little miracle" is more than a shout away.
Hope I haven't mischaracterized anyone's position.
I'm firmly with Rick on this subject. Robbie suggests comparing to a lower league giant killer but we've outplayed so many teams this season and have been undone by the oppo goalie producing a hatfull of worldie saves!
I wasn't comparing us to a lower league giant killer Dave, I was making a point about your use of the term "competitive", comparing your saying we proved ourselves competitive in the league this season by beating Man City and running Liverpool close, to saying e.g. that Luton proved themselves good enough to be deemed competitive at the top level when, in 2013, as a non-league team, they turned us over in the FA Cup.
Regarding being undone by opposition goalkeepers: sorry, but that's the quality of keepers in this league. It's an illusion to think they somehow play better against us rather than our competitors. Wouldn't the more reasonable conclusion be that our striking is less effective than that of our competitors?
I'm not going to let this rumble on Robbie, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not criticising your opinion Robbie, I just happen to disagree with it
I'm going to do the same, Robbie. I do feel that we've improved through better tactics and fitness recently. Had that been true from the start we'd be in a much better position now. I don't think we'll survive, but I hope we can show that we can play well at this level over the rest of the season. That for me would be an indication that our long term program is on course.
I think we have changed the balance of the team, as a consequence we are certainly better defensively, but our goal scoring and chance creation has dropped off a cliff. Is the balance right? Maybe closer, were Pukki in peak form, it might just be that we have it right? But he isn't and no one else is scoring still so whilst we are still playing some easy on the eye football, I'd be inclined to agree with Robbie in so much as we have been found wanting, are not greatly competitive (The table doesn't lie) and as DF has said, we are basically a championship side. I would add a caveat to that, we are more than that for me, we look the archetypal yoyo limbo side, very good for div 2 but poor and weak for div 1.
That we try to compete, give it our all and for parts of games look capable of living with or even beating PL clubs doesn't mask the fact that they make their periods of dominance tell and take their chances. To truly compete so must we.
Our performances have steadily improved pretty much since we've had 2 fit CB's. I suspect even if we hadn't had our CB injuries we would have been in the lower half of the table, but I don't think we would have been bottom and certainly not 7 points adrift of safety. Although we've tightened up defensively this seems to have affected our attacking threat. We won't win games if we don't score goals and draws aren't enough.
Don't agree that we haven't been competitive, we have, there have been very few games when we haven't still had a chance of getting something from a game right up to the last minute. Being competitive for me is not about the result, but the performance. If we took analogy from boxing not being competitive is, for example, being knocked out in the first couple of rounds having been totally outclassed. Being competitive is going 12 rounds and losing on a split decision. In both examples there is a winner and a loser so the result is the same, but the performance by the loser is very different. Whilst the table doesn't lie, nor does it tell the whole story and I don't doubt if we had been luckier with injuries we'd be in a better position than we are now. I agree you that on last and this seasons performances we are a very good championship / lower PL team. Still well ahead of the clubs plans and as a club we are in excellent shape to become an established bottom half PL team over the next 2/3 years.
In our last 5 games (2-1-2) we've scored 4 goals and conceded 4. That's reasonable, considering the two losses by a single goal were against top six sides. If we can carry that sort of form through the rest of the season we could improve our position and, with a bit of luck, possibly even survive
And proved ourselves competitive! 7 points adrift still at the end of the season and we weren't competitive, we also ran. Our objective had to be survival, a narrow miss on that and you have an argument, 7 pts adrift and for me we weren't competitive.
To follow CC's post. If we were a boxer we are a sort of glass jawed no hoper with a powderpuff punch but can't half dance round the ring. Just occasionally someone can't hit us, we look good and we pick a rare point or 3 up. but then maybe we're Ortiz for 6 1/2 rounds we look good but switch off just the once and lights out from the unskilled and ugly Wilder who need have no fear of us and picks us off. Go down 7 or more points adrift and unfortunately were more like Audrey Harrison.
Opinions need to be criticised Dave, else they erroneously assume the mantle of truth!
You've characterised the difference of opinion between myself and Rick perfectly correctly CS. My concern is that, rather than prologue, what we are seeing is epilogue, that Murphy's description of us as "the best rock bottom team I can remember" will prove to be the epitaph, not just for this season, but for the season after next too.
I'd like to think we've shown that it's possible to have opposing views without any name calling bad temper.
I respect your opinion and can see where you are coming from, I just think and hope differently