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Off Topic Art & Literature

Discussion in 'Southampton' started by Beddy, Nov 26, 2019.

  1. Beddy

    Beddy Plays the percentage

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    Just listened to all 18 books written by LJ Ross DCI Ryan series. Very well written and narrated. Currently on Joy Ellis series on the “ fens murders”. All excellent so far well Narrated.
     
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  2. Che’s Godlike Thighs

    Che’s Godlike Thighs Well-Known Member

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    Just finished the Harry Potter series, and have to say, I'm unashamedly a big Potter fan now. Absolutely in awe of the epic scale of the world that JK Rowling has created there. The continual is he-isn't he, twisting character arc of Severus Snape, is just brilliant.
     
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  3. SaintLapras

    SaintLapras Well-Known Member

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    The world building in the Harry Potter series is fantastic, like the fact that there's so many layers and subtle references. Like for example in book 1, there is a very small reference to occulimancy which you'd never pick up unless you reread it after book 5.

    Also it's inspired so much creativity and such. I was once a member for many years of a Harry Potter Neverwinter nights server in which Hogwarts, hogsmeade, pinboria, all sorts of places had been recreated in Neverwinter nights and I spent a lot of my early teen days there, roleplaying classes, quidditch, dueling tournaments, card battles... It was impressive but I think it died.

    More recently I was on this site called Hogwarts is here where you enroll and do lessons in particular subjects and follow a curriculum, writing essays or doing quizzes and gaining house points. It was great, but died. Still when I last checked, there were some signs of life. On that there was lots of extra roleplay things people would do... Like there was an entire school magazine that people would pressumably spend a lot of time and effort creating content for. I was quidditch correspondent for it, and seeing as only 2 American teams are mentioned, I created this whole league structure for American quidditch (basically I copied the NFL) and I also created a whole semi pro British and Irish quidditch pyramid. Well it wasn't much of a pyramid as it only had two tiers but still. I'll have to show you some stuff from it some time. I once wrote an entire article about US presidents and their relationship to quidditch lol

    Still, what you should do now is the Pottermore quiz and see what house you're in

    It's a shame JK Rowling is a transphobe though
     
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    Last edited: Jun 24, 2021
  4. hotbovril

    hotbovril Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll find that, like Joe Rogan and indeed, me, she is simply against females who were once male competing in female sports. That's not transphobic, that's protecting women's sport. Regardles, I never read the books or watched the films but am reading the stories to my 8 and 5 year old daughters every night. They're enjoying it almost as much as I am <laugh>
     
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  5. BackFromBeyond

    BackFromBeyond Well-Known Member

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    "‘People who menstruate.’ I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?" JK Rowling

    Over that spat, to me her issue was merely that "people who menstruate" should be referred to as - correctly - in that context as "women who menstruate." Not what the dissenters saw, that people who menstruate, to Rowling simply equals to a definition of a woman; and wilfully offending trans women and of course women who no longer menstruate as not women, which could likely include herself.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 25, 2021
  6. Che’s Godlike Thighs

    Che’s Godlike Thighs Well-Known Member

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    Yeah the scope of it is just incredible. All the intertwining backstories and subplots. Rowling is a genius. I've just started watching the movies from last night. I'm going to be scanning them for plot holes because I never found any in the books, despite expecting to all the time (because of the complexity of it all). Don't think I'll find any. Mainly I'm just going to enjoy seeing faces and voices being put to all the wonderful characters I've gotten to know. Have to say, in the first movie, Hermione is just adorable, haha. She absolutely steals the show.
     
    #706
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  7. Ian Thumwood

    Ian Thumwood Well-Known Member

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    Picking up on some of the comments about J. K. Rowling, it would appear that most people in here have no issues with female authors whose main protagonists are male. It is an interesting question because male writers having a female first person are often not appreciated, especially with writers like Wilbur Smith who I loved reading as a teenager but realised by my early twenties repeatedly gave his female characters the same traits in each of his books. Even writers as good as William Boyd have fallen foul of this - I think "Sweet Caress" (a "biography" of a celebrated female photographer) is probably the least satisfying of all his books I have read.

    I think that female writers are generally more successful at writing about male characters than the other way around. I have never read any of J. K. Rowling's work as I find her irritating as a person and too aloof. The reason I am posting this is that I have recently finished Kate Atkinson's "Big sky" which is another in her series about her fictional detective Jackson Brodie. I have to say that the appeal of her writing comes from how well she captures both people's dialogue and thoughts. In my opinion the stories are almost secondary and Brodie is a bit of a peripheral character even in his own books as he doesn't actually do much detective work and the stories simply involve a detective. It is very different from someone like Philip Kerr or Reginald Hill and almost like a social drama laced with black humour. However, both female and male characters seem really well drawn and there is abundance of dry remarks from the characters which strike me as being really on the nose.

    The other point I wanted to raise is also prompted by "Big sky" and that is the abundance of cultural references which stuck me as giving this book a limited shelf life. Quite a lot of TV programmes such as "Line of duty" and recent items of news are mentioned in this book and it struck me that, in about 10-15 years time, these references may no longer be recognisable to their audience.
     
    #707
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  8. shoot_spiderman

    shoot_spiderman Power to the People

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    Alan Warner - The Stars in the Bright Sky
    Brilliant book about a group of Scottish girls trying to go on holiday

    Can’t believe it’s written by a man and if I had only gone by the synopsis I’d have thought “not for me”. Luckily I knew what a great Author he was

    Reminds me I’ve got to read the Sopranos. Not the famous one but his prequel to this
     
    #708
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  9. Bob's mate

    Bob's mate Member

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    On what grounds do you base that bold statement on?
     
    #709
  10. SaintLapras

    SaintLapras Well-Known Member

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    Well transphobe was maybe a bit much but her big essay was full of stereotypes: trans is just a phase, lots of trans people regret transitioning, being a tomboy/fem girl (what is the male equivalent to a ton boy) would mean you'd identify as trans, not to mention the insinuation that bigotry only goes one way, but conveniently ignoring the bigotry by terfs or whatever you want to call them.

    Still, regardless she is a great writer and excellent world builder, and generally I can appreciate someone's work even if they hold views I disagree with. Some people are more militant and burn books, but that kind of blinkered thinking is part of why there is such bigotry regarding things like gender dysphoria and trans rights and so on.
     
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  11. Bob's mate

    Bob's mate Member

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    As you say, JK Rowling is a great writer. I have enjoyed all of the Cormoran Strike novels written under her pseudonym, Robert Galbraith. Her attention to detail and the amount of research she conducts is immense. I would say her essay that you mentioned, carries the same attention to detail, is widely researched and that she cites her sources. You criticise the essay as using 'stereotypes' yet you use term 'TERF' which as you know is a derogatory term used on the likes of social media to silence women who raise concerns. You seem to share the common misconception that someone who upholds the rights of women is transphobic. From her essay, I would say JK Rowling has great empathy for trans-identified people while upholding the rights of women.

    I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

    So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth.

    https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/...ns-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/
     
    #711
  12. SaintLapras

    SaintLapras Well-Known Member

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    Eh, I use terf for lack of a better word, and I use it to refer to the militant types who send death rates rather than a woman who happens to have concerns. I mean, it's understandable that say if a biological male 13 year old identifies as female who hasn't transitioned (because you can't at that age), then it would be inappropriate for them to use the girls changing room in school, and being concerned about that wouldn't make someone a terf. They could change in a gender neutral toilet (I..e the disabled toilet) for example, and I think no reasonable trans or cis person would object to that. It would be unreasonable to say they must change in the boys changing room because they are biologically male or they must change in the girl's changing room because they identify as female. But likewise it wouldn't be reasonable to demand a 25 year old trans woman who has undergone gender reassignment (including surgery) to use the men's toilets. It's about compromise. Each side needs to try to understand the other's point of view. The problem is, reasonable people are few and far between on Twitter and you get extremists on both sides who exist in their own echo chamber and don't try to understand anyone else's perspective.
     
    #712
  13. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    Is this current discussion about either Art or Literature by the way? Asking on behalf of a friend who hasn’t decided.
     
    #713
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  14. Che’s Godlike Thighs

    Che’s Godlike Thighs Well-Known Member

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    I’m not involved in the conversation, but I have no issue with it either. I’m interested to learn about the views of the writers that I read. Far more so than the opinions of football players, and I don’t think there’d be a problem discussing this on the football thread, had a footballer said something similar.
     
    #714
  15. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    Yes that’s a fair point.
     
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  16. Beddy

    Beddy Plays the percentage

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    It is after all an open forum now I guess.
     
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  17. Ian Thumwood

    Ian Thumwood Well-Known Member

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    I have just finished Jerome K Jerome's "Three men in a boat" which i was forced to read at school. It is a book that I had been tempted to revisit to see if my opinion had changed over the intervening 40 years and now that I can both appreciate the historical context and am familiar with some of the stretches of the Thames I am familiar with, As you would expect for a book written in 1889, some of the humour seems laboured these days although there are elements which are quite ironic which I did appreciate. The chapter concerning fishermen was quite amusing and the story regarding the fish displayed in the glass cabinet in the pub.

    I found the introduction to the Penguin edition interesting because it put the book and Jerome's writing in to the context of his young, male, middle class audience who were enjoying the benefits of increased leisure time which would have incorporated football as well as rowing. I suppose the nearest you could compare this to in contemporary times would be the "lad mags" that appeared in the 1990s. Jerome was really tapping in to this kind of audience and I would not necessarily have picked the constant references to alcohol, tobacco, girls and eating establishments. It was this kind of book which helped W H Smith start to become a success.

    All in all, I found it a strange book. I loved the nostalgic references whilst sometimes being irritated by the slapstick humour associated with such matters as packing the luggage, hanging a picture or opening a tin of pineapples. Amusing, though, to read his negative remarks about Reading.
     
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  18. davecg69

    davecg69 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, Ian. I was recently encouraged to read “Diary of a Nobody” by the book club (run by my daughter). Everyone else loved it, but I found it forced, banal and not even remotely funny. I thought it hadn’t aged well and said to them that I much preferred “3 Men in a Boat”. I realised I hadn’t read that for years, so I, also, revisited it. I hadn’t associated it with 90s lads mags, but, reading your review, I see the similarities. I actually enjoyed some of the slapstick humour, particularly the pineapple episode. As you say, it has to aged that well, but, if you give it a bit of leeway because of that, it’s a funny little tale.
    Strangely, it was only after I finished it, that I realised all of the members of my daughter’s book club come from Reading ….. so i’m wondering now ….. :emoticon-0103-cool:
     
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  19. Bob's mate

    Bob's mate Member

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    I think so and I believe it has wider issues within the world of Art and Literature in that gratuitously accusing authors or artists of 'Transphobia' or using the acronym TERF can lead to serious consequences and be devastating for those who produce work and earn a living by commission.

    In February of this year, a number of publishing staff at Hatchett refused to work on JK Rowling's children's fairy-tale 'The Iackabog', because of her views on sex and gender issues. Despite their protests, Hatchett issued a statement in support of JK Rowling's right to free speech

    We are proud to publish JK Rowling’s children’s fairy tale The Ickabog. Freedom of speech is the cornerstone of publishing. We fundamentally believe that everyone has the right to express their own thoughts and beliefs. That’s why we never comment on our authors’ personal views and we respect our employees’ right to hold a different view. We will never make our employees work on a book whose content they find upsetting for personal reasons, but we draw a distinction between that and refusing to work on a book because they disagree with an author’s views outside their writing, which runs contrary to our belief in free speech

    Only this week the artist Jess de Wahls had her embroidery artwork withdrawn from the Royal Academy of Art following complaints on social media. Accusations of 'Transphobia' were levelled against her after a blog Jess made in 2019.

    The Royal Academy later apologised and asked to continue to sell her work saying:

    We should have handled this better, the decision has betrayed our most important values - the protection of free speech.


    In 2020, journalist Suzanne Moore was forced to leave the Guardian after 300 staff members penned their name to a letter alleging 'transphobic content'

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/suzanne-...nd-letter-of-revolt-over-transphobic-content/

    Thankfully, the recent judgement by the honourable Mr Justice Choudhray in the Maya Forstater tribunal upheld:

    You have the right to hold the believe that 'sex is immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity'. Gender critical views fall under the Equality Act and they do not destroy the rights of trans people.

    We can only hope that we've reached the peak of when accusations of 'Transphobia' will no longer result in artists and authors being silenced or afraid to speak up for Women's Rights for fear of their losing livelihood.
     
    #719
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  20. Ian Thumwood

    Ian Thumwood Well-Known Member

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    I piked up Samanta Schweblin's "Little Eyes" as the premise of a novel about a fad for a toy called a Kentuki which is effectively a cuddly animal which conceals a camera linked by the internet the dweller who pays to inhabit it. The book is effectively a series of chapters concerning a number of scenarios involving both owners and dwellers and the stories effectively pick apart ideas such as how the internet leads us to presume people's characters and our perception of our relationships with people. The book has been translated rom Spanish and there is something about the scenarios which struck me as very different from how someone who deal with a similar scenario in the English language. It is not really science fiction but more of a commentary of contemporary society and how people react to these toys, whether being a school boy in Antigua obsessed with snow, a widow in Peru who feels protective towards a girl being exploited by her boyfriend in Germany, the mistress of an artist who unwittingly become involved in her partners new piece of work or Italian divorcee who becomes obsessed with communicating with his son's Kentuki. Some of the stories are limited to one, short story whereas others unfold over the course of the book. Whilst the books is largely an exercise in revealing how people react to these devices and how the fad for them ultimately diminishes as they become ubiquitous, there are moments where the kentukis themselves are put in peril which I found made the book difficult to put down. It is one of those books which you can polish over really quickly yet make you think about what you have read for sometime afterwards. I found it really interesting although not necessarily as disturbing as the blurb made out.
     
    #720
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