General Football Thread

Bristol City Women 0 - 6 Manchester City Women.
2 goals and 2 assists from Lauren Hemp, who hails from North Walsh.i.am

 

Today's edition of The Athletic features an article on the Football Sustainability Index, a new measure developed by Fair Game, a group campaigning for improved governance in football. The Index is "a grading system by which every club is judged on financial sustainability, governance, fan engagement and equality standards." To quote the opening paragraphs of the part of the article dealing with the Championship:

"Premier League riches, for most, bring a solid financial sustainability rating and that is again evident in the Championship. Clubs with the highest scores are typically still in receipt of parachute payments when filing their most recent set of accounts, including Sheffield United, Burnley, Watford and Huddersfield Town. Norwich City, who also scored highly for governance and fan engagement, led the way overall as a club that attempts to live prudently within its means.

Luton Town, who reached the Championship play-offs against the odds last year, were the outlier, showing financial sustainability on a limited budget, but at the opposite end of the table were clubs that have gambled in pursuit of Premier League promotion and routinely come up short.

Blackburn Rovers and Middlesbrough both returned a zero rating for financial sustainability, with Queens Park Rangers, Coventry City and Stoke City only marginally better. Fair Game has called them a collection of clubs that have chased the siren call of the Premier League.

“Outside the Premier League, clubs’ finances are a mess,” added Couper. “The Championship has become a casino and at stake are the history and traditions of our great clubs."

Nothing we don't already know, but the Index may serve to provide a potent reminder to club owners, and fans.

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I would have thought a photo of Delia and Michael might have been more appropriate myself.

 

I think a picture of Webber would have been most prudent and should be considered a massive win for him. But most people won’t want to put any praise in his name. The above is what he has done for the club since he has been here

 

Thank you for making that point Suffolk. I was going to say Webber myself but funked out of it, anticipating the deluge of criticism that would have followed .....

 

Further to my post referencing The Athletic's article on Fair Game's Sustainability Index, if you are interested in the contribution of each of the four elements making up the Index (Financial Sustainability, Governance, Fan Engagement, Equality Standards) to a club's final Index score, this greater detail is provided on Fair Game's own web site:

https://www.fairgameuk.org/sustainability-index

Curiously, there is an unexplained discrepancy between the totals, and therefore the "league positions" of some clubs, between The Athletic's table and Fair Game's own version. Doesn't affect our position at the top of the Championship though.

 

Come on Norwich City media department. Get your act together. We're barely in the play-off positions yet ........

 

For those on here that enjoy TNC content they have managed to bag an interview with David Wagner which goes live in YouTube tomorrow at 5pm

 

The "particular nastiness" of football fan culture is alive and well:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64526659

 

Hard man footballers & managers have fee fees too


Much like stand up comics , if they bomb the paying customers heckle them .

I'm sure when Ryan gets back to his mansion payed for by the fans he'll chear up a bit .

 

Shouting vile abuse at someone or members of their family is not just "heckling" them, any more than making racist jokes about someone is just "banter". Only in the world of football fandom would anyone think it was, hence the quoted reference to "peculiar nastiness".

Does freely choosing to spend your money on going to watch football entitle a person to disregard norms of decency and any consideration towards others?

I have a friend who is a long time season ticket holder at Carrow Road. He goes to matches with his son and daughter-in-law, and their two children. They have seats in the lower Barclay, roughly mid-way between the goal and the away section. They have applied to move to the River End because of the increasing level of abuse and foul language from those they sit amongst, including from parents and youngsters in the same age group as them. Can you tell me of any other form of recreation or entertainment where a family group such as theirs would have to listen to that sort of behaviour week after week?

 

Mr Lowe didn't mention anything about being racially abused , or racist banter ,or his family being abused either you just inserted that yourself to make it seem worse, he didn't even mention swear words .

Every time Tim Krul went to kick the ball a section of Burnley fans yelled " You're **** ah ".

I would imagine he's got thick enough skin to overcome the emotional turmoil.

You could start a petition to make the Barclay end a swear free zone if it makes you feel better?

I'm guessing you only brought this up because Dean Smith was subject to similar mean abuse by the Norwich fans .

Football is a blokey World and blokes swear and say mean things, if football fans acted that way at a West end musical or tennis match then that would be inappropriate.

Delia did actually implement a grassing hotline to report oiks for swearing or acting drunk .

Preston fans without a home win are clearly pissed off, sorry I mean a bit disappointed & perhaps some would rather not have Mr Lowe in charge anymore, & perhaps Mr Lowe could quit his position & end the mean words directed at him ?

If he's that easily offended perhaps football management isn't right for him .

 

I dunno Dunc - I get what you’re saying about the history and the raucousness is part of the culture. But I think football has grown up a lot in the last 5-10 years, as has society - and any form of abuse is not acceptable in a way that it was once tolerated.

I think you can be raucous, have a good time, even voice displeasure, without being abusive or crude. And I also reckon 90%, if not way higher, of fans are like that - still passionate, but without abusing - and so this really only impacts on a small minority who want to be really unpleasant.

It’s not going to change overnight, but the trajectory is clear. This sort of behaviour is dying out and now managers are confident enough to speak out against it that will accelerate the decline. And that’s a good thing IMO.

 

Lowe didn't mention what was said, it could have been " You ****ing useless prick ".

Norwich fans were chanting "It's all our fault " to Smith before he got fired that could have been taken as abuse if he was offended.

When the referee failed to blow for a penalty on Saturday with a blatant hand ball chants were heard that weren't very complimentary.

Referee's are human too .

Where does it stop ?

I've heard people calling politicians horrible things like " Tory scum " etc, they are humans too with feelings .

Are we allowed to call Trump an orange **** ?

A football manager takes the plaudits and adulation from tens of thousands of fans when things go well, as they chant his name .

Fans also voice their displeasure when they turn up every week and lose constantly .

I wouldn't personally shout abuse at a manager, but I've witnessed chants of "****er " towards referee's many times .

I've also seen terrible bands get booed off stage , perhaps they went away and practiced harder or gave up ?


The participation award generation where just turning up is the same as competing and winning has seeped into popular culture.

We could do away with keeping score too because the losing team may get sad .

When it becomes illegal to swear at a football match and fans get banned for booing players and managers , I'll stop bothering to follow the sport.

 

Cricket is a gentleman's game fans are allowed to drink beer all day and get very Rowdy especially England v Australia.

They have a tradition of sledging where the players purposely say mean things and use abusive language to try and break each other's concentration to gain an advantage.

It's 2023 perhaps this revolting practice should be outlawed too ?

 

As ever, it’s shades of grey, not clear cut. It’s about judging the context. But the main rule is nothing personal and nothing gratuitously rude.

To take your examples:

- “You ****ing useless prick” - always going to be unacceptable abuse, because it is personal and gratuitous. It’s not clever, it’s not making any point.

- Norwich fans chanting “it’s all our fault” - if it’s a collective chant, then this definitely not abusive - it’s not rude, not personal and is making a substantive point about who they felt (rightly or wrongly) is being blamed. If it’s one bloke centimetres from Smith’s face, screaming and spittle-flecked, then it’s abuse.

- Referee abuse - obviously context is everything but almost certainly unacceptable abuse. You do get the occasional chants about referees - re getting specs etc which are usually the right side of the line. I think this will be the last aspects of the football abuse culture to die.

- “Tory scum” - abuse

- “An orange ****” as much as I would like to say this is acceptable, it’s not. Even Trump doesn’t deserve abuse.

- Voicing displeasure - as long as it’s not personal, not just swearing and abusive, it’s unlikely to be unacceptable abuse. If it’s right up in the target’s face, threatening and horrible, it will be.

- “****er” at the referee - unacceptable abuse unless he is literally masturbating on the pitch.

- Booing off - usually not abuse, though again context is everything so if it gets personal, in the face, threatening, it will be abuse.

- Swearing - that’s a personal preference, as long as swearing is not directed at anyone, it’s not abuse.

 

Sledging has come under enormous criticism over the last five years or so and so the really unpleasant personal type of sledging is consequently dying out

 

We could go one step further & stewards could go to sections of the crowd & suggest that the supporters aren't clapping loud enough, perhaps warnings could be handed out for repeat offenders for causing the manager distress leading to bans.

Failure to support vigorously enough could be classed as anti support.




Poor Dean quite rightly said he was glad the following game was away meaning those horrible Norwich fans wouldn't be able to boo and upset him .

We could one day live in a sanitised World where all perceived hate is punishable by the police , forcing everyone to be nice all the time.


If your local MP decides to make your life worse by forcing you to close your business & go bust , like many over the last few years with the mandates.

If you voice your disapproval towards them verbally or online .

Perhaps they may take offence and you could end up being arrested for abuse?

Hating them would be illegal.

Offence is subjective, and anyone can report a non crime hate incident even on behalf of others.

I could be enjoying a bright pink cocktail with an umbrella in it in Yellows , my friend laughs and says " You big ****ing poof ".

I may not be offended , but someone can overhear and call the police if they felt alarmed and distressed.
Context is irrelevant, abuse is in the ears of the supposed victim.


My friend could end up with a permanent non crime hate incident on their record for what they considered normal behaviour.

This would appear on a CRB check and could stop you getting a job in certain areas .

Vindictive people could even weaponise supposed offence to have someone harassed by police , it's subjective after all with no evidence needed other than , "I felt offended".

If fans shout racial abuse or threats of violence then the law covers these areas already.

Doubtful any action would be taken if someone shouted " Stupid Scottish idiot" but for persons from a protected characteristic group this would be a crime If you switch it with Scottish.

Calling Dean Ashton for example "A bald bastard " would not count as a hate crime .



Who knows what was said to the Preston manager but , if this becomes commonplace that they start demanding action .

Self censorship would be used everywhere just in case someone takes offence and gets you banned from civilised society.

Fans may become too frightened to do anything other than smile like a mental patient and clap like a seal .

Perhaps underground venues may spring up where hate peddlers could shout swear words at the screen like they used to before we were all forced , by punishment of arrest to be nice all the time.

Government mandated speech is to me terrifying & counter productive as it's those writing the laws that get to decide what is or isn't hate speech.

Grant Holt was called a fat bastard every game during his time with Norwich, those dark days are hopefully gone forever.

 

Words are important, but so is context. Part of the point of competitive sport, especially team games, is an outlet for behaviour and language which we wouldn't normally express outside the stadium. Expecting a spectator to shout, 'Oh my goodness, how did that dreadful mistake occur?' after Krul gifted Burnley a goal on Saturday is the stuff of fantasy. Expecting him or her to say nothing is equally ridiculous. He or she is going to call Krul a lot of things which are not very complimentary or polite. Krul is happy to take the huge salary and the plaudits when he does well, so he can take the verbal flak when he screws up.

My bigger problem with all this politer-than-thou crap is that it always targets the ordinary person for something relatively minor. If you're rich and important, and enact your nastiness in a polite and official manner, you can be as vile and scummy and malicious as you like and not really suffer. The current Tory government proves this. Bullying, sexual harassment, tax fraud, corruption, and on and on it goes - slap on the wrist and then you're back in after six months. Much easier to target some poor sod who calls the ref a wa*ker at a football ground than sort out a political elite that stinks to high heaven.

 

I know I'm guilty of whataboutery in my post above. But this reflects my disillusion with what has happened to a lot of liberal thinking, which now seems more interested in attacking fellow liberals for not being pure enough than aiming their fire at bigots and racists. The people who have suffered as a result are former activists like Germaine Greer and Peter Tatchell, who have been no-platformed. Orange ****s couldn't care less about being pure or getting no-platformed - they can go on behaving how they like and get away with it.