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How can we get better referees in professional football?

Discussion in 'Southampton' started by ChilcoSaint, Feb 14, 2021.

  1. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    Something Fats said earlier rang very true with me, words to the effect that referees seem to have been frustrated as kids by not being any good at football. This generally meant that most of them never played football at any serious level, and thus their knowledge of the game is limited to knowing the rules. The way a footballer has to hold his body to run, jump, tackle, maintain balance and so on is lost on the members of the PGMOL.

    For the purposes if this discussion I am not treating VAR as a separate problem, as the decision-making part of the technology is entirely left to the same people as in the previous paragraph. It is clear and obvious to me that the overarching issue is the lack of quality and inconsistency of the referees.

    Part of the current problem is of course due to the rules, particularly the one concerning where handball begins and offside ends. IFAB, the lawmakers, are made up of representatives of each nation’s FA, and although some of these people may have been footballers in the past I doubt if many of them played the game very recently. The current handball rule must have been concocted at the end of a very heavy night out.

    So how can this problem, which in my view is killing the enjoyment of watching football, and which when lockdown ends may well see crowds well below former levels, be fixed?

    Could young referees be somehow recruited from football club academies, by making the job an attractive alternative to actually playing? Premier League referees currently receive an annual salary of between £70,000 and £200,000 plus a £1,500 match fee each time they appear. This seems astronomical considering how awful many of them are, but what if they were paid even more, in return for more competition for places at the top level, and more public scrutiny than they currently get.

    This thread has of course been provoked by Saints being on the wrong end of some dreadful refereeing cock-ups in recent games, but incompetence and inconsistency is by no means limited to our games.

    The problem has to be addressed, before the beautiful game is killed off altogether.

    Please discuss.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 14, 2021
  2. Che’s Godlike Thighs

    Che’s Godlike Thighs Well-Known Member

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    I think the FA need to seriously reconsider their policy of only hiring c*nts.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
  3. steve79

    steve79 Well-Known Member

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    Makes you wonder how many ex players could do a better job than some of the refs. Also the **** ups are obviously highlighted hence you dont read or hear about a ref that had a good game. Some of the rules need changing and also the use of var. Some simple changes would help the refs make the correct call
     
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  4. Le Tissier's Laces

    Le Tissier's Laces Well-Known Member

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    Refs were always human, but now they've been given an extra robotic arm, it's tipped the balance from bearable idiots to making the game virtually unwatchable as a spectacle.

    The simple solution is to forget the VAR experiment and get back to how things were.

    Lots of love,
    Music Manager who pines for the 80s.
     
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  5. Saintmagic

    Saintmagic Well-Known Member

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    Not many ex players are going to want to be a ref. They won’t need the money and will have had front row seats into how much grief goes into being one.

    From my experiences playing at a very low level refs usually are sad little men who like nothing more than bossing people round for 90mins as they don’t have much else going on.
     
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  6. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    Which is why I suggested recruiting them from younger players. The best referee I have ever seen was Pierluigi Collina, who was voted FIFA referee of the year for 6 consecutive seasons in the 1990s. He played for a local team as a CB as a teenager so at least he had some idea of how to play football.
     
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  7. tomw24

    tomw24 Well-Known Member
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    The main thing that needs changing is the ridiculously long winded process for referees to progress up the levels. I'm certain it puts off a lot of young referees from really aiming for the top. Unlike top young footballers where you turn pro at 17 that's not the case with referees. To get to the top with refereeing, you've somehow got to balance working full time with refereeing twice a week which will involve travelling half the length of the country when you progress past County league level. It's just too much for the majority of people, myself included.

    There's no obvious solution to this but young referees who show a lot of promise need a lot more support from the FA. Maybe they could set up an academy for young referees where they really learn the game properly and fast track their development.
     
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  8. Le Tissier's Laces

    Le Tissier's Laces Well-Known Member

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    That does sound suitable. It needs to be set up as a properly supported, properly trained career choice. Not a hobby.
     
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  9. ChilcoSaint

    ChilcoSaint What a disgrace
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    I agree with everything you say, except I think it’s important that they should have experience of playing the game as well. Maybe this could even happen during their referee training,
     
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  10. Saint Jimmy

    Saint Jimmy Member

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    My best mate is a ref and when we were younger actually pursued it quite far and ended up reffing at quite a high standard for a while. He was very highly thought of amongst officials and if he stuck at it could probably have ended up with a career from it but I would never want him reffing one of my matches even at the shocking hungover Sunday league level I play. Sounds cliche but he got into reffing because he had 2 left feet but enjoyed the banter you get on a football pitch. He would often be heard goading players he felt had gone down easily etc and although this was always done in good humour, that is not what I expect from a ref. This imo is the problem - refs are not there to be part of the match in a way, they are there to officiate and oversee it.

    Don’t necessarily agree refs need to have played to a good level - think most football fans who have played at the most basic level or watched enough matches would apply more common sense if reffing a match than the likes of Mike Dean or Lee Mason. That’s not to say I think your average Joe would ref to a higher standard than what we have in the PL.

    Will also add the refs are being let down by some awful rules. But that doesn’t excuse the inconsistencies today being a prime example. There should have been 0 penalties today and the only reason you could justify the ref giving any is because of the ridiculous handball rule we currently have. That being said if the ref decides to give the one against us there is no justification in not giving one for us if he is applying the same rule
     
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    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021

  11. Saintmagic

    Saintmagic Well-Known Member

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    But how young is young? My dreams of making it as a pro effectively ended in my early to mid teens due to a lack of talent but mainly a stubbed toe I sustained once. Even by then I would never have wanted to be a ref due to the abuse I had seen them receive and my disdain for them in general from the few years I had already spent playing.

    I assume there is an age minimum limit for refs at any level? If that is something like 18 then I really find it hard to see it being a hugely popular choice for anyone who has played at any sort of level. You will get the odd person who wants to because they could potentially get much further as a ref than as a player, and also the money you have outlined they could earn. But players released by academies etc in their mid/late teens can still have a playing career in the semi pro leagues or amateur level instead of reffing and I would imagine this to be a far more popular choice due to them again having seen what refs go through.
     
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  12. SaintinNZ

    SaintinNZ Well-Known Member

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    Consequences. That’s all. If you make errors affecting the outcome of a game then you get called out for it. Three strikes and you get consequences. There’s lots of leeway in there but the twats we’ve had recently need to be called to account and demoted. If you can’t do the job you don’t get the job.
     
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  13. Archers Road

    Archers Road Urban Spaceman

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    1) Bin off VAR; it adds nothing, solves nothing, and the general consensus now is that it’s dogshit.

    2) Train and encourage refs to trust their instincts, using judgement, experience and common sense.

    3) Accept that refs are human and will make mistakes. That element of the game isn’t going away

    4) Shift the emphasis away from the letter of the law and towards the spirit of the law. Is that a penalty for handball? **** the exact way the laws are worded, use common sense and judgement.


    No reasonable person trusting in their instincts could possibly have given that penalty against Bertrand yesterday - only someone who was over zealous about a literal interpretation of the way the rule is worded, would have done so. Or someone with a grudge. Or an idiot.

    Okay, I’m venting now, but objectively, do we currently have a crop of particularly **** refs in the PL? Because none of them get asked to ref on the big European or International stages anymore.
     
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  14. tomw24

    tomw24 Well-Known Member
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    I think studying the game would be sufficient. Jon Moss played football to non-league level and yet you still don't rate him whereas Michael Oliver didn't play any sort of competition football and yet he's the best referee in the country.
     
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  15. tomw24

    tomw24 Well-Known Member
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    Oliver and Taylor referee regularly in the Champions League.
     
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  16. Ian Thumwood

    Ian Thumwood Well-Known Member

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    This is a really sensible approach and I fully concur with this post.

    About five years ago I read the autobiography of Howard Webb and found it quite a revelation. What it did demonstrate was the high level training the likes of Webb went through and also the insane level of scrutiny by the various footballing bodies in the game. The referees at this level are pretty professional and I think there is probably a degree of truth in the fact that British refs are probably amongst the best - both now and historically. I grew up when there were refs around like Clive Thomas who were well respected and authoritative figures,. I felt that Webb did not come across too well in his book although he was clearly a dedicated professional and certainly not clueless as some have suggested as being a common fault with referees. What struck me more than anything else was that he clearly had a high opinion of himself and the fact that he also served as a policeman probably told you a lot about his character,. It was also fair to say that the referees do scrutinise their performances and that this "profession" does have a degree of "self-policing" where they look to maintain standards. The underlying issues often seem to be personal, referees preferring to work in a team with particular linesmen, particular managers not being held in high esteem and the petty jealousies amongst them. Webb particularly disliked Graham Poll and I was surprised to read about the refs having "factions" whereby the whole business was undermined by office politics. I appreciate the comment about "refs being human" is frequently held as the exemplar but think that most fans use this to forgive refs for making mistakes. Howard Webb's book underscored for me that this comment has a wider context which often is not so good where the "human" element is goes beyond making errors. Clearly these people have fragile egos as they are under constant scrutiny by the media. The penalty decision against us in the Villa game is a prime example. A mistake is made and the ref refuses to retract this to save face.

    I don't think that VAR has been the panacea fans were sold. It is effectively adding a fourth person's opinion albeit one which can be carried out in retrospect with technology. This is why the comments about common sense and "playing to the spirit of the law" is so spot on. Technology can never do this and will only aid subjective decision making and not make it objective. If anything, I think that the commercial aspect of football has led to the implementation of VAR and all it has done is exacerbate poor decision making. It has added an element of uncertainty to the game whilst also tending to make some decisions look even more ridiculous. It has made the problem with referees worse and not better.
     
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  17. AberdeenSaint

    AberdeenSaint Well-Known Member

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    Going a bit off-piste here, but why does Sian Massey Ellis never ref matches ?. She always seems to be a lino (and a very good one), but never the ref.
     
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  18. tomw24

    tomw24 Well-Known Member
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    She's not at a high enough level. You have to choose when you get to a certain level to either be a referee or an AR. Not both. The reason for that it requires different skills to be a good AR rather than a good referee.
     
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  19. garysfc

    garysfc Well-Known Member

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    Brilliant <laugh><laugh><laugh>
     
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  20. garysfc

    garysfc Well-Known Member

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    A bit “out there” but why not poach the EU’s best refs. There’s no doubting we’ve got the money. Yep, I appreciate they play & ref a bit different on the mainland (jeez, I can’t even believe I wrote that, although very true) & it might take an EU ref a bit of time to get “up” to “our level” but why not? We recruit a good % of the worlds best players; why not refs as well? ......... I’ve got a sneaking suspicion I know the answer.
     
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