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Mid Table Mediocrity Concerns

Discussion in 'Sunderland' started by mackemwelder, Feb 2, 2015.

  1. mackemwelder

    mackemwelder Well-Known Member

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    With the recent Post about FFP Rules, it got me thinking, can we really compete for anything other than mid table mediocrity?
    On the pitch you can see what Gus is trying to achieve, he’s made us hard to beat unlike we were under previous managers. He’s now working on the other end of the field and brought in Defoe to help boost our goal tally. Haven’t personally seen it yet, but I’m told we are creating more chances and with our current players, we should have what it takes to get more goals. Defoe will get goals if given service, Fletcher will score goals if given service, Wickham is learning but already shown he can get goals also.
    I think what we have in place right now should be enough to get us mid table by the end of the season. I also believe that Gus can be the man to take us beyond mid table if given the resources but there lies the problem.
    Already we are at busting point under the FFP rules and realistically, I don’t see any massive changes to the squad for next season that will get us to that elusive ‘next level’. We’ll probably see the likes of Mavrias, Cabral, Coates, possibly Vergini, possibly Brown, Graham, and maybe Giacci & Alvarez leave the club although the last two I would hope to keep. Will that be enough to free up funds to replace them with better players to lift the squad to the ‘next level’? personally I don’t think it is, but where would the cash come from? We already have a good sponsorship deal in place, we already have an average of 40,000 (guess) through the turnstiles each home game, we don’t do to well with TV money although I can’t see that having a significant difference. A good cup run would bring in extra money but we can’t rely on that every season.
    Under FFP rules we are allowed to bust the bank by £5m per season without any cash injection by the owner, or £35m if the owner is prepared to stick his hand in his pocket and write off the debt. Ellis was very instrumental when the FFP rules were being set up so I can’t see him going against them.
    Will we ever be able to afford to buy the quality of player that will take us beyond mid table mediocrity? With our current club strategy I just can’t see it.
     
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  2. MrRAWhite

    MrRAWhite Well-Known Member

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    Every other team have to abide by the same restrictions, so if the likes of Southampton can do it then why not us?
     
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  3. grandpops

    grandpops Well-Known Member

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    I somehow can`t see Ellis Short championing a system which would put himself at a disadvantage. Doesn`t make sense to me.

    Southampton are up there among the big boys and they`re not exactly a worldwide brand. If they can, we can.
     
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  4. Deleted #

    Deleted # Well-Known Member

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    Southampton have an academy which they use and seem to constantly produce terrific players, we rarely seem to use our academy. Agree with the rest though
     
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  5. mackemwelder

    mackemwelder Well-Known Member

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    Better coaching/scouting system maybe? less overheads? I dunno. Just a bit concerned.
     
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  6. Deleted #

    Deleted # Well-Known Member

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    Mid table is probably what we should be striving for and targeting the cups each season. We may have a good season where we are amongst and challenging top 6. Can anybody see us seriously getting established amongst Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham and maybe even Everton? I can't and there's 7 teams.
     
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  7. Tel (they/them)

    Tel (they/them) Sucky’s Bailiff

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    It's about generating income mate, that's why I made the comment about Rosicky, great player but not where I'd be investing my money if I was your owner.

    The model set up by your neighbours is flourishing, something along those lines, coupled with a bit of ambition should yield good results.

    What I'd foresee is a merry-go-round of mid table clubs flirting with Europe under this model, whereby there'd be sustained periods of probably 1 to 3 seasons then a 'refresh' if you will where you'd sell players for profit and maybe have to take a step back.

    There should be the odd team who'd push for more, over a longer period as well, in my mind it certainly seems like a more exciting league than what we've seen since Abramovic tipped up 10 years ago.

    QPR would be getting ripped to shreds by FFP if they were in Europe, they could have been savaged by the Football League (who have different FFP guidelines) if they didn't get promoted, I bet the powers that be in the Football League are waiting for QPR like a pack of angry wolves, hoping that they drop back down.
     
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  8. mackemwelder

    mackemwelder Well-Known Member

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    No, but to be fair I wouldn't rate Everton in the same category as the other 6 mate.

    The next level for us has to be 12th to 7th, we're never going to able to compete on a serious level with the top 6, we may beat one or two of them but not compete for final positions.
     
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  9. MrRAWhite

    MrRAWhite Well-Known Member

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    Then it is maybe a model that we should be trying to emulate, because they are doing something right..
     
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  10. Deleted #

    Deleted # Well-Known Member

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    That's a fair assessment mate, we should be challenging amongst Southampton, Newcastle, Everton, Swansea and Stoke. That should be our level but at the minute though we are still a little below them <ok>

    I've still got something telling me we will be rewarded for persisting with Gus and our big season is not far away.
     
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  11. mackemwelder

    mackemwelder Well-Known Member

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    Fully agree, but with our current squad I don't see us being able to sell any player for profit. More likely a hefty loss of we sold our better players and that WOULD set us back.
     
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  12. E.T. Fairfax

    E.T. Fairfax Well-Known Member

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    For the foreseeable future 'mid table mediocrity' would tickle me pink! Then once mid table mediocrity becomes the norm then we can be in a position to push on!!!! One step at a time!
     
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  13. mackemwelder

    mackemwelder Well-Known Member

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    I definitely think he is the right man for the job, but if the club has any ambition? they need to find a way to back him.
     
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  14. Tel (they/them)

    Tel (they/them) Sucky’s Bailiff

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    That's why the emphasis needs to be on firstly, balance of youth and experience, then progressing more towards younger players making up most of your squad.

    If you're gonna sign 8 players in the summer, then at least 3 of them should be for development with potential, 3 under 25 and 2 experienced (over 25).

    Bolton went with experience far too often now they have stupid amounts of debt and are playing outside of the PL.
     
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  15. BalesBalls

    BalesBalls Active Member

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    Man City / Chelsea would be mid table if no one put big money into them, the problem for lower teams if they do well and discover some good players the big boys will come along and cherry pick
     
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  16. Tel (they/them)

    Tel (they/them) Sucky’s Bailiff

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    City would be an embarrassment if it wasn't for Shinawatra, Chelsea though, I think they'd be doing well regardless. Maybe not as well as they're currently doing but I could see them being in the mix for Europe rather than mid-table.
     
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  17. Montysoptician

    Montysoptician Well-Known Member

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    <ok> Great points, but you haven't mentioned what I think will rapidly become the most important one.

    The restrictions of FFP, for clubs in the Premier League is restricted to Sky money, any revenue from other sources can be used to increase wages and attract players. That's why the likes of Manchester United are sitting pretty, they have a turnover of around £600m and the Sky money is only a small proportion of that.

    I believe that is why Mr Short is building relationships around the world in an attempt to increase our turnover. The DC United partnership is looking more interesting the more I read about FFP <ok>
     
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    Last edited: Feb 2, 2015
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  18. The Relic

    The Relic Well-Known Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't there a big in-house battle at Sunderland last summer which saw Kevin Ball moved upstairs and a lot of our development squad given free transfers? If I remember, Gus wanted the whole club to pull in one direction. The idea was the same as Wenger has been doing for years - develop young players who can play 'the Sunderland way', and like Arsenal's kids, step up a level seamlessly. We haven't heard anything about that, but it seems from Ball's appointment that Gus did get control of that.

    If that's correct, then we're already being set up for Southampton type organization. I think we have to give this time.
     
    #18
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  19. Aussie blackcat85

    Aussie blackcat85 Well-Known Member

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    Great thread mate, for me personally mid table ATM would be a dream.. That means more wins! Less stress lol.. Your whole analysis of the FFP under ES is sound! One thing mr Ellis has done has bent right over and been unduly ****ed in the asshole by MON, PDC & co. Will 4give him for being a tight **** ATM.. My 2 bourbons worth is if ES likes what he sees comes seasons end then his chastity belt of billions will be broken mark my words but ATM sum he's cautiously being optimistic!
     
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    Last edited: Feb 2, 2015
  20. Nads

    Nads Well-Known Member

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    I think a lot of work is going on behind the scenes, the partnerships in US & Africa etc to increase turnover.

    There's logic in getting he money there before you spend it rather than furiously backtracking cos you've breached.

    Look at City, mega sponsors, mega wealth, had to send Negredo out on loan to get within the lines.

    It is, of course, all bullshit for UEFA to fleece a few quid. Even before the mega money, there were always bigger clubs, with a few more quid.
     
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