Off Topic Off-Topic Thread (Anything Non-Football Related)

Erm... just to point out that you mentioned the Koran in your first post.... just sayin'

 

YOU mentioned the Quran . I literally just quoted your post because of how asinine it was. Just in case you forgot what you said, let me quote you in your own words again:

^ Are you going to deny that you said this?

It's not just criticising though, it's the manner in how you criticise. If someone is deliberating misquoting, misrepresenting and cherry-picking certain verses of the Quran or Hadith that are completely out of context or looked at ahistorically, then it is the duty upon those who have the right knowledge in that field to correct those errors. Because what that does is it creates a platform for people to spew their bile about Islam and Muslims based on things that aren't true. And it is important to correct those misconceptions and misrepresentations wherever they may be so that people don't get the wrong idea about what Muslims believe.

Overreacting? I wasn't overreacting, I was responding to a post you made that I was well within my rights to because you were making bold yet untrue statements, sweeping generalisations and unnecessary hyperbole. I have no issue with anyone wanting to critique Islam, so long as it's respectful, dignified and doesn't wreck the reputation of Muslims, who are already facing enough grief in this day and age as it is. Your post didn't do that, so I had to respond to it because I couldn't let you write something like that without being rebutted.

If you have a problem with me responding to a post you made that I fundamentally disagreed with, perhaps you don't understand what the purpose of a forum is. If you don't want me to challenge you, then either block me or stop using this website.

 

Which statement did I make that was untrue? I didn't cherry-pick any quotations, and I wasn't disrespectful to Islam.

Again, are you claiming that Sharia doesn't say homosexual sex is a crime, or that women are discriminated against in Islam, or that most Muslims I have met agree with both these things?

You are the one making bold claims that you know what is in the mind of all Muslims, and you know who I have met, and what they told me. To be honest, I don't even know why you think what I am saying is remotely unbelievable.

Most of what I have said about Islam you could have heard 40 years ago in a men's football changing room in Britain, before anyone was interested in Islam in the UK. And men were rightly condemned for it. What I want to know is, what is the reason for your double standard?

Why is it so important to you that we don't say Sharia is wrong; homosexual sex is fine and perfectly OK, and women should not be treated differently to men. Now saying that would be actually disrespectful to Islam.

 

I addressed all of this in post no. 2099. I'm not doing the same song and dance with you again. And I didn't say you cherry-picked any quotations, I meant people, as in people generally that criticise Islam have a habit of doing this.

Homosexual sex is a sin. As is heterosexual sex outside of marriage. As is cheating on your spouse. As is swearing. As is drinking alcohol. As is going clubbing. All of these are things that a lot of Muslims do. Does it mean they should die for sinning? No. We are human. Humans make mistakes. Humans sin.

I reject the idea that women are discriminated against in Islam, they are discriminated against by some Muslims who come from a particular background and have backward ideas about the role of women in society. These are two different things. But again, this isn't just exclusive to Muslims.

Never said I knew what is in the mind of all Muslims, I'm not a mind-reader. But I have a better idea than you do having been in numerous circles, discussions and debates with Muslims, in addition to the fact that I am one and I have family that are Muslims too. I've also looked at several polls and statistics to support what I'm saying as well.

Now, some of what you said can be true in certain circumstances, but most of what you've said isn't true at all.

 

I am not telling you all Muslims do it. I have never said that. I am saying that Muslims get a ****ing pass on public opinion, when they do persecute gays or women, or say someone should do that.

I don't care how many of them do it, I don't care whether you think they do it. When they do it, it should be condemned. So when you say homosexuality is a sin, you are wrong. And if your book says that, it is wrong.

Your defensiveness on this is exactly what I am talking about. Seriously, if a white straight man said homosexuality was a sin at work, he could pretty much be sacked, and outside work he would be shunned and called all kinds of names. But if he is a Muslim - then it is fine.

You just keep proving my point

 

And as I have repeatedly stated, you are utterly wrong on this. It's like you're living in a different universe to the rest of us. PLENTY of Muslims have been widely condemned and castigated for some of the statements they have made in these regards. I can provide plenty of sources to support this, but at this rate, I don't see what purpose it serves because you've basically been ignoring all the evidence I've already put in front of you for other points and persisted with your prosaic-written myopia.

Steady on here. There's a difference between homosexual feelings and homosexual actions. In Islam, homosexual feelings aren't a sin because you can't help how you feel about something or someone. But you can control how you act. However, even if you act upon your desires, that doesn't mean you're not a Muslim, it just means you're a Muslim who has acted in a way that is not accepted in Islam. Muslims act in ways that aren't acceptable all the time though. We all have our own struggles.

Whether you think that is wrong or not is subjective. That's according to your morality and values.

In the same way that you may not agree with the rules in Islam, Muslims (generally) do not agree with the practice of homoerotic acts. That doesn't mean you should discriminate or harm or persecute gay people just because they may act upon their desires. They are human at the end of the day.

What point? You don't have a point. All you're doing is regurgitating the same claptrap at the beginning of your first post. It was nonsense then and it is nonsense now.

 

I'm not going to be bullied by you. Your opinions are offensive. This is what I am trying to get across to you. In the West if anyone else expressed your opinions openly about gay people, like you have here, they would be charged with a hate crime.

I've reported your post as a homophobic hate post.

 

'Bullied'? 'Homophobic'? 'Hate'?

Are we just going to use words that we don't mean here or are you actually going to engage with my post properly?

Nothing in any of my posts constitutes any of those things and if you think it does, my advice would be for you to either ignore me or quit this forum if you can't hack someone's views that oppose yours.

 

I'm not going to give you a platform to spread your hate any more - discussion over. It is not acceptable to refer to gay people as evil sinners.

 

I never referred to gay people as evil sinners, but feel free to carry on making things up as you go along. It's what you've done throughout this entire exchange anyway.

 

I don't agree with Islam labelling homosexuals as sinners in the same way that I don't agree with the Bible labelling homosexuals as sinners. My personal view of religion is that some of its doctrines are in complete contradiction to its claims of love, compassion and peace. However, it's obvious that some practising Muslims and Christians are gay, in fact the christian church has openly gay clergy, so I would say that their respective religions need updating on this issue.

I would also say that you can be a practising Muslim or Christian and be completely accepting of homosexuality. Let's face it, this is 2017 and quite frankly, some of the texts that were written 1500-2000 years ago are just not relevant to a modern multicultural world. As I've said, I'm not a massive fan of religion, but I see the positive effect that it has in some people's and community's lives. Personally I would like to see some religions go through a modernisation process, where the texts are re-evaluated for the world today.

 

Are sinners good? No
What is the opposite of good? Evil

Now you are just playing word games. It just isn't all right to do what you are doing.

 

Right. This is going to be my last response to you on this thread because we're going round and round in circles here.

Let me be clear. And I've basically said this a few times now, but I'm going to make it as obvious as I possibly can to really hammer the point home. Being a sinner does absolutely NOT mean you are a bad person. Even the most pious, most religious and observant Muslim in the world right now is a sinner. All people in all walks of life sin, irrespective of creed, colour, faith, sexual orientation, gender, age etc. It happens. We are all human, it is natural for us in many ways to sin or to want to sin, as far as the Islamic definition of sinning goes.

This does not mean I think every human is 'evil'. Far from it.

If you wish to continue being disingenuous and making false claims about what I've said, then carry on. But I'm not going to continue taking the bait.

Have a good life.

 

Are you actually reading the arguments Brunel is putting forward? You are losing all credibility in answering this way.

 

I would agree with this -it makes sense for all religions to take stock of themselves from time to time.