I agree totally with you notDistant.....plus the Governments £60/80 million sweetner to Nissan in 2016 which they totally denied at the time....only coming to light because Nissan have renegade on the building of two models at their Sunderland plant.....the diesel problem plus the Governments cock-up of the Brexit negotiations has all been mentioned as the reason....as Rees-Mogg has said...the EU have won every round of negotiations so far. Not a Tory fan....but what is the alternative a Labour election win...that horrifies me even more.....this country is crying out for a third party taking the centre ground. I know you won't agree with me...but 3/4 years ago I felt that UKIP might of been that alternative with Farage in charge....but he threw it all away thinking his job was done and stepped down...letting the idiots take over and destroying the party.....I still think the Tories broke the law to make sure he didn't win in Thanet....tried to cover their tracks unsuccessfully....yet have got away with it. If Scotland ever get independence ( let them go please)....and we bring our Scottish naval depots back to England...Plymouth would miss out because of their poor transportation links to the rest of England....the government would have to spend £billions to up grade land/air links before that could be considered...another failing of Governments which ever party was in power over the years.
Actually the Nissan thing is more complicated still. The EU has just completed a trade deal with Japan which will see tariffs on cars reduce over a 10 year period to the point where there is little or no advantage in manufacturing Japanese cars in Europe. Presumably the EU got something in return: perhaps it's lower tariffs for BMW's, Volkswagens and Renaults going to Japan! As the UK seems hell-bent on throwing itself off the cliff by leaving the EU, we won't benefit from that trade deal! Not quite sure how it stands with EU anti-subsidy rules but I'd have thought £80m to bring well paid skilled jobs to the North East was money bloody well spent!
Did Nissan in return bring £80 million worth of wages to Sunderland's workforce....if not the Government would have done a better deal giving the workforce of Sunderland the money direct......
So we're happy to pay people do to nothing are we? Nissan employs 6,700 people directly in skilled engineering jobs in an otherwise depressed area. It probably supports at least the same number in its local supply chain. It contributes to the UK's balance of trade by exporting the value added in the cars it produces here. Same applies to Toyota, Honda, Rolls Royce, Bentley, JLR, BMW Mini and indeed Airbus and Bombardier. I for one want more of these jobs in this country even if their ultimate ownership is foreign. Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S9
Paying companies to produce goods in your Country is nothing new in the world. Countries have been doing that for years and I can see why they would. £80m would only represent a few years wages in that Factory. The production and jobs would be there for years and years and it would encourage the Company to remain. People who think decisions like this have nothing to do with Brexit are just in denial. There will be plenty more. Once these jobs have gone they will be gone forever. I watched the News when this was being announced and they interviewed people from Sunderland. I just could not understand how they still thought leaving was good news.
1.....Former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab yesterday admitted he felt pushed out of EU withdrawal negotiations by senior civil servants. He said too much power was given to Whitehall during talks, leading to the principle of ministerial accountability being "frayed". Mr Raab said Oliver Robbins, the civil servant who leads the day-to-day negotiations with Brussels, was able to "circumvent" him as Brexit secretary because he reported directly to Theresa May. "The challenge is when the senior civil servant is both the personal adviser to the Prime Minister but also leading the Civil Service team, " he told the Commons European scrutiny committee. "That creates problems because you can circumvent the principle of ministerial accountability, which is vital to negotiations. That certainly happened." he said. The former minister, who resigned in November in protest at the EU exit deal, also said he was "very surprised" to find a key change to the terms of the controversial Brexit backstop included in official documents "without my Knowledge or my agreement". Daily Telegraph....7/2/2019. My thoughts.....Well there you have it....as most of us realized...Brexit negotiations have been a stitch-up from the beginning.....Theresa May's chief advisor Oliver Robbins was the main negotiator reporting directly to the PM and by-passing the Brexit Secretary.....and that is why we're in cock-up land and sold down the swanny. 2.....Donald Tusk sabotaged Theresa May's mission to secure vital Brexit concessions from the EU yesterday as he said there was a "special place in hell" for Leave campaigners. The Prime Minister had hoped to be given a positive reception in Brussels today, but instead the European Council president poisoned cross-Channel relations with comments described as "disgraceful", "spiteful" and "arrogant" by Cabinet ministers. MP's demanded in vain that the "devilish Euro-maniac" apologised for his outburst, but instead Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliaments Brexit negotiator. fanned the flames by saying even Lucifer would not welcome Brexiteers, because "after what they did to Britain, they would even manage to divide hell". Article continues......... Daily Telegraph.....7/2/2019. My thoughts.....the sooner we get free of these types running the EU the better......I know you won't all agree with that view....but it's time people woke up to the direction the EU is going....the days of a "free trade zone" are long past....and the United States of Europe is the federal aim.
Plym "I know you won't all agree with that view". You are the only one on this board who has that view so it isn't exactly surprising it won't be agreed is it.
I understand that....most of you are in the minority because Plymouth in general voted strongly to come out of the EU....and most of us being of the older generation would generally be more for leaving than the younger generation.
But they are not telling you if we stay in there are clauses eg. the Belgium treaty or similar and really scary and wouldn't let me download it to this site. ..beware.
And therein lies the problem Plym. I am of the "older generation" and I passionately do not agree with leaving. I find the arguments of the older generation are not based on what is good for the people of this country but on some weird ideal of how life used to be and "what we fought for". That what we fought for thing of course was not them but their parents and grandparents but lets not let age get in the way of a good argument. This is not hundreds of years ago when countries could have empires and stuff. This is an era when being together and as one is much more sense than it has ever been. We, that is older people, are deciding the future for generations of younger people who even you recognise do not want what we are enforcing on them. The object of the exercise from the EU perspective is that they do not want the break up of the Community. They are going to make sure it is as hard as possible for countries to even consider doing what this one is. Even to the point of punishing if necessary. Why wouldn't they if they can? We will suffer for this decision no matter what is being said now. It is plainly obvious and I don't understand how people can close their eyes to this and pretend it isn't going to happen. Think about it. If you had a child who stated their intention to do something you totally didn't agree with you would impose a sanction. "If you do that then I will not allow this and you will be on your own without me to bail you out" It's the standard response of a parent who is trying to stop a child being stupid and making a mistake as they see it. Simplistic that may be but it is in basic terms what the EU is doing to the UK now. It will be too late when the standard of living has dropped and it will be no good people moaning it wasn't what they were promised. Financial forecast lowered already, jobs being moved abroad, companies not investing in the future in the UK. It's all there to see and the other promises are just that, promises without any of it being real yet. Sticking fingers in ears and going "lalalalala" comes to mind. If I can't see it or hear it then it isn't happening said the Ostrich from his underground headrest. As the Hyena put on his dinner bib and sharpened his teeth.
That's another thing I find strange hp-bedoboy. You live outside the UK and work even further afield. People I've spoken to who are in a similar situation to that mostly seem to think this country should leave. Yet, the main argument I've heard from them is that immigration is far too rife, jobs are being taken etc. The fact that these very people are doing that in other's countries seems to whistle past them. It's ok for me to do all that but not for foreigners to do it in my country. Even if pointed out the fact seems to just blow past and they cannot/ will not see it.
There will indeed be a special place in Hell for those who led us to Brexit but they really didn't want a plan in the first place. What they wanted all along was for us to crash out of the EU without a deal irrespective of the huge damage it will do to our industries and our prosperity. And there should be a specially hot corner in the special place in Hell for those who lied to persuade uninforned voters to support the Leave campaign. Everything the Remain campaign predicted is coming true, nothing the Leavers said has happened, especially that it would be easy to get a trade deal. Not with them about it won't.
Had a near miss this morning on our Saturday walk up at High Elms.....a decaying tree trunk....possible 80/90ft tall came crashing down in the windy conditions....made the ground tremble.....heard a snapping noise and saw it coming down about 20 yds away....the ground had taken a lot of rain in the last 24hrs....although this morning it was bright and sunny although the wind was still evident. Obviously didn't have our number on it.
That was my choice to work overseas and live but now retired not like the shower coming now that demand theìr religious rights and benefits that seems to be given with no question. I still pay voluntary contributions to the NHS etc. where I live now I'm not a burden to the country and pay and live to the rules. As I said they are not telling us everything if we stay thats all. We actually see boat loads of them here trying to get to mainland Europe and usually fit men with no women or kids which in the end wiĺl take over in years to come with sinister thoughts. People have the right to live anywhere in Europe or elsewhere if accepted and not being a burden but as for the rest...? Why some ex servicemen/women on the streets that deserve far better?
I am not referring to people being a burden or not hp. I'm talking about the concept that it is ok for you to live in somebody else's country but not for others to come and live in the country of your birth. Many of them abide by the rules and many of them pay their way with the taxes and NHS etc. However, there are also many who live in other's countries who do what the rest do and neither contribute nor abide by rules. They had a vote to keep their twins out of this country and actually had the temerity to vote not to let them in. It's just plain double standards. Do you not see the main point of this? You state in your opening line that "it was my choice......" Because you are British does that give you more of a right to choose to live in another's country than it does for them to choose to live here? It just makes no sense.
See your point and correctly so but my main point is the illegals just waltzing in and demand what they want.
The treatment of illegal entries is a completely different story and no amount of votes in or out will change any of that. They will still make a break to get here whether in or out of the EU. A lot who voted out however did so on the basis of not wanting ANY foreigners to come here no matter how legal or illegal they are. That for me is just plain racist and not the way a vote should be decided or conducted. I guess though the ins and outs won't ever on this.
I think your overstating leavers feelings sensible.....controlled immigration....we were promised by the Government that they would get it down to a 100,000 a year....they have showed that they have no control at all....and that attitude caused a backlash and was one of the fundamental reasons behind the out vote,
