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Discussion in 'Plymouth' started by Plymborn, Jun 25, 2017.
Saddam was killing off the Marsh-Arabs....a war crime that needed stopping.
Oh well that's ok then. Silly me for not thinking the World is a better place now than was the case pre Saddam and Gadaffi. By the way notdistant, as one who has served I can tell you that you do not join or volunteer for the service life to invade the rest of the World. You are there in defence of your own country and the last time I looked that was the coastline along the English Channel, North sea and Irish sea. It is also not our job to be the conscience of the rest of the World either Plym. There are loads of wrong doings in this world which we do absolutely nothing about. China have killed thousands of it's own people, Russia have done the same. Have we even thought of invading? Nah of course we haven't because it isn't within our interests to do so.
Everytime there is an accident, i.e. Grenfell Flats where people die there is an enquiry and somebody has to be hung out for the rest to see as the person responsible. I believe they call that Corporate Murder or Manslaughter. When a politician sends thousands of people out to fight somebody else and die then there has to be a bloody good reason for it. That reason if proved to be false which that one was then that is the same thing as Grenfell. Between us and the Yanks the region has been left in a complete mess and that mess is of our doing. It is far far worse there now than it ever was under the two Despots. But we saved them. You know what? If I got saved like that I think I'd rather people didn't bother in the first place.
So Kosovo then, right or wrong to intervene in genocide? No national interest involved at all.
It's so unfair having to make decisions without the benefit of hindsight.
Well lets see if we invade North Korea with the Yanks? No chance... of that.. i wonder why?
I've already answered the question which is wrong. I have already said why I think that. It is not our place to be the conscience of the world or the world police. There was no real reason for us to invade Iraq apart from Regime change which is supposedly illegal internationally. We were sold the premice of weapons of mass destruction of which it was proved there were none and not only that but the opinion of people who inspected who actually said there were none proveable. One man thought there was. That's one man in this country because I'm not speaking for other nations. Because he "thought" there was even though there was no proper proof he declared his war. Because of that false argument hundreds of thousands of people, that's men, women and children have died and continue to die. Not including our own service people who were sent there. The whole region has been destablised and it has led to people who think bombing and killing all over the world is now fair game. The country left behind is no more than a pile of rubble. It will take years and years for anything to be made right there and I doubt it will be in my lifetime. The man responsible for our involvement was Tony Blair. If he was the CEO of a company responsible for a handful of deaths then he would be in the ****. Just because he's a PM does not exonerate him from blame and responsiblity. He lied. I know it, you know it and he knows he did. All he does now is wriggle and make excuses and even he has tried the hindsight argument. If you are going to commit this country to an armed conflict then you have to know for 100% certain that it is justified and right. I maintain it was never anywhere near that. He should be tried in a court by a judge who isn't already establishment but truely independant and should pay the price for his crimes. I say crimes because that is exactly what he has committed.
I will just add one thing. If you are a Police Officer in an armed response team called to deal with an incident how responsible are you for shooting somebody if you believed they were a danger to others. You believe they are armed and about to use the weapon. You shoot them and it is fatal. Turns out though that in the split second you had to make the judgement you got it wrong. There was no weapon but just something that looked a bit like one. Does anyone think "oh well, never mind it was just a mistake and if they had hindsight it wouldn't have happened". Does the PM come out and back them up? Not a chance of either is there. The Copper gets fed to the wolves and has to take responsibility for the decision he made. Why should a PM get excused for hindsight sake when nobody else gets that opportunity.
Chilcot says he didn't lie. What he said was "emotionally true" i.e. he believed it. He was wrong, Saddam having secretly disposed of the WoMD he definitely did have at one time, but he believed what he said to be true.
I refer to my previous point ref Police Officer. Believing yourself to be right without evidence is pure arrogance on his part if he intended to send a load of people to war. If you tell the nation that the man in question has weapons of mass destruction when he doesn't and you have no proof he has then that is a lie. I don't care how much you wrap it up in semantics it is a lie. Call it what it is and not what wriggling politicians come out with to justify themselves. The reason Chilcott doesn't use the word "liar" is because he is part of the establishment to a degree and he wouldn't want to be the reason a former PM of this country ended up in the dock. Not proper form is it old boy. Instead he dresses it up in a load of gobbledy gook and double speak. For "emotionally true" read "the blokes a fecking lying barsteward".
If Blair had made his decision on available intelligence information....British and American....does that make him a liar....or just misinformed.
Did Saddam Hussain have weapons of mass destruction at some time before....and got rid of them or did he not have any ever.....or was available US/UK information poorly interpreted.
1.....Members of the European Parliament want to change the legal definition of "marmalade" after Brexit so that German strawberry and plum jams can also use the label.
The EU directive " on fruit jams, jellies, marmalades and sweetened chestnut puree" states that a jam can only be called marmalade if it contains at least 20% citrus fruit.
The 1979 rule supports the UK understanding of marmalade as being made from Seville oranges or lemons.
The rare British victory in Brussels has stuck in the craw of German and Austrians ever since. Traditionally, jams made from other fruits were called marmalade in those countries.
Jakob von Weizsacker, a German socialist MEP, believes that Brexit is the chance to put that historical wrong right and make jam marmalade again.
My thoughts.......you can call jam anything you like after we've left.
2.....Three Sikh men helped nearly 70 Afghan illegal immigrants sneak into the UK using the passports of British Sikhs in a £600,000 scam, a court heard.
Border officials were unable to distinguish between the illegal immigrants and the genuine passport holders because Sikh men are allowed to wear turbans in their ID documents.
Daljit Kapoor, 41, Harmit Kapoor, 42, and Davinder Chawla, 43, appeared at Inner London Crown Court yesterday for the start of a Newton hearing after disagreements between the prosecution and the defence over their level of involvement in the scam. The hearing continues.
My thoughts.....if found guilty...deport the lot.
3.....Britain's costly warships and aircraft are at risk from potential enemies because of their aging missile and surveillance technology, a respected think tank has warned.
Technological leaps by rivals such as Russia and China have eroded the military dominance once taken for granted by the West, the paper from the Royal United Services Institute said. The report singles out long-range missiles "which threaten large land, maritime and air platforms" and could knock out satellite-based communications and positioning systems that Western militaries have become reliant on.
The report warns that "missiles costing (much) less than half a million pounds a unit could at least disable a British aircraft carrier that cost more than £3billion". It goes on: China and Russia appear to have focused many (but not all) of their efforts on being able to put at risk the key Western assets that are large, few in number and expensive.
4.....Theresa May's plan to form an alliance with Labour unravelled yesterday as former ministers said it was "advertising her weakness" and would hasten her downfall.
Tory MP's in the commons also attacked the "love-fest" and urged Mrs May to sup with Jeremy Corbyn with a " very long spoon" on security issues.
In a speech today, Mrs May will ask Mr Corbyn for his support in delivering Brexit and other legislation as she faces up to the "reality I now face as Prime Minister.
My thoughts....Hasn't she learnt anything from jumping into bed with DUP....now she is asking Labour to hold her hand and help her govern the country to help her out.....she gets weaker every time she opens her mouth
It has been said many times plym that there was NO evidence available that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Blair decided to give his own interpretation of things rather than what he was being told elsewhere. What he presented to the public at large, that's you and me, was not factual and therefore was a lie. If you don't tell the truth about something then you lied. It really is that simple no matter what spin you would rather put on it. I fail to understand after all the evidence that has been presented over the years how anyone can even begin to try to defend the man.
A lie is a statement made in the full knowledge it isn't true.
According to the United Nations, Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons in the war against Iran are as follows:
1983, August Haj Umran mustard less than 100 Iranian/Kurdish casualties
1983, October–November Panjwin mustard 3,000 Iranian/Kurdish casualties
1984, February–March Majnoon Island mustard 2,500 Iranian casualties
1984, March Operation Badr al-Basrah tabun 50–100 Iranian casualties
1985, March Battle of the Marshes Hawizah Marsh mustard and tabun 3,000 Iranian casualties
1986, February Operation Dawn 8 al-Faw mustard and tabun 8,000 to 10,000 Iranian casualties
1986, December Um ar-Rasas mustard 1,000 Iranian casualties
1987, April Siege of Basra (Karbala-5) al-Basrah mustard and tabun 5,000 Iranian casualties
1987, June Chemical bombing of Sardasht Sardasht mustard 8,000 Iranian civilians exposed
1987, October Sumar/Mehran mustard and nerve agent 3,000 Iranian casualties
1988, March Halabja chemical attack Halabjah and villages around Marivan mustard and nerve agent 1,000 Iranian Kurdish civilian casualties
1988, April Second Battle of al-Faw al-Faw mustard and nerve agent 1,000 Iranian casualties
1988, May Fish Lake mustard and nerve agent 100 or 1,000 Iranian casualties
1988, June Majnoon Island mustard and nerve agent 100 or 1,000 Iranian casualties
1988, May-June villages around Sarpol-e Zahab, Gilan-e-gharb and Oshnavieh iranian civilians
1988, July South-central border mustard and nerve agent 100 or 1,000 Iranian casualties
Also in 1988, a mixture of chemical weapons were used against Iraqi Kurds in an assault on at Halabja. Fatalities are estimated at 3,000 to 5,000 and injured at 7,000 to 10,000.
In 1991, CS gas and a nerve agent were used against Iraqis taking part in the Popular Uprising against Saddam Hussein, Casualties are not known.
So let's turn it on its head. Given that background, and given Iraq continued to suffer heavy sanctions for possessing and using chemical weapons, with continual obstruction of UN inspections, what evidence would you have needed in 2003 to believe that Saddam Hussein had in fact destroyed his chemical weapons in secret? Quite a lot I'd suggest.
i dont like Jam or Marmalade.. to the Germans can call it what they wish and jam it somewere they wish
2 things in answer to that which is realy a look back at what I've said already. The first is that it is not the place of the UK to police the world so whether Iraq did or didn't have these things would not have made me go to war if I had to make a decision. We are thousands of miles away from the area and should not pick and choose where to pile in or not to pile in when circumstances are similar or even the same. Plenty of despots in the world killing thier own and we do nothing. The fact that America wanted to bomb the **** out of Iraq and remove Saddam was the main catalist for Blair to decide he wanted to be a hero on the back of other people's lives. China has been no better, Joe already pointed out North Korea. That's just 2 we haven't and there are quite a few more.
The second point is that if you are to commit troops on the ground then you have to know why and simply believing something is not a good enough reason. Blair interpreted the information to his own ends and how anyone can defend the man now given what we know is just beyond me. To debate the enth degree of what is a lie is just crap. He did not tell the truth full stop. Thousands and thousands have died because of it. That is criminal in anyone's book. It's part of the reason bombs go off in almost every country in the western world now. If one went off outside your house notdistant I wonder how forgiving you would be then. I will never be convinced Blair isn't a criminal and a complete cretin who is now earning a living off the back of his previous crime.
Dont forget what Russia do constantly in their area.. crimea, ukraine just a few .. We dont go there??
Agree Blair is a liar and a CRIMINAL.. He should have been swung.. or at least be charged now its out.. His own party members never agreed ask that idiot Corbyn how he thinks.. To late now its been done and we are suffering with the constant threat of a terror attack of some sort.. That wont go away..
1.....Criminal gangs are giving illegal immigrants "three for the price of one" deals to get into the UK, the Chief Inspector of Borders has said.
David Bolt said there was evidence a "significant proportion" of illegal immigrants do not fight their deportation.
He said "Border Force Officers assumed that this was because these individuals would make further attempts to enter the UK clandestinely drawn by the 'pull factor' of access to paid work in the shadow economy".
" Officers believed rumours to the effect that the fee charged by criminal gangs covered three facilitated attempts to enter clandestinely".
A damning Border Force report also found that illegal immigrants are able to enter Britain unchallenged because there are no checks at almost half of small ports in the east of England. Mr Bolt said that officials had failed to make any visits to 27 of the 62 small ports between February 2015 and June 2016.
He said that the lack of checks meant that there was no " visible deterrent" for people trying to smuggle illegal immigrants and illicit goods into the UK.
My thoughts.....freedom of movement takes on a whole new meaning in this day an age......with no port checks in many places....it is not only illegal immigrants and goods that can easily enter the UK but foreign terrorists and returning Jehadists as well......they don't need to sneak in during the night in small boats anymore.....we are so lax in our homeland security...it is unbelievable.
2.....Theresa May's administration is putting a successful Brexit at risk by failing to show "active and energetic" leadership, the head of the National Audit Office (NAO) has warded.
In an unprecedented intervention, Sir Amyas Morse said Whitehall departments were being left to "struggle on their own" with no direction.
He said Brexit posed the "Biggest challenge" to the nation since the second World War, but government could "come apart like a chocolate orange" unless departments get more support.
Sir Amyas also revealed that David Davis's Brexit department failed to show him a plan for leaving the EU, despite his request for one, and could only offer a "vague" explanation as to why it was unable to do so.
"Government will need to be fast and flexible and act in a unified way," Sir Amyas said, He added that he had serious doubts about the likelihood of a unified approach, saying: "We have an issue here because of departmental government and what we don't want to find is that at the first tap it comes apart like a chocolate orange."
Last night Labour said it would vote against Mrs May's "Great Repeal Bill" unless she made significant concessions on issues such as workers' rights.
Also Michel Barnier, the EU's chief Brexit negotiator, hit back yesterday at Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson's declaration that the EU can "go whistle" if it thinks the UK will pay a large exit bill.
Sir Amyas's remarks follow weeks of speculation about Mrs May's ability to lead after the election defeat and plots to replace her at No 10 as well as fears of a rift between the PM and her Cabinet colleagues over Brexit strategy.
My thoughts.....the PM isn't up to the task....and what Boris said might be what we think....but the prat knows how to stir an hornets nest and get peoples backs up.
3.....Reforms to free up cash in pension pots for those over 55 have backfired, with more than 250,000 savers at risk of paying too much tax on lump sums, the Financial Conduct Authority has warned.
It said that 53% of the one million pots accessed so far under pension freedoms have been fully cashed in when only 25% of the pots can be taken tax free. It blamed "a lack of public trust in pensions".
4.....Ships carrying Chinese troops are heading for the East African nation of Djibouti with a view to establishing the nation's first overseas military base.
China says it's new facility is a "support base" with mainly logistical functions. However, observers see it as a key part of Beijings plans to expand its global reach. India in particular views the base with suspicion as New Delhi is concerned that China is confronting it with a ' ring of pearls' a series of assets and alliances across the Indian Ocean and into south-east Asia.
It's difficult to lead a government, a parliament and a country which is fundamentally divided on the principle of Brexit never mind the detail.
May, driven by the hardcore Faragists, is putting the emphasis on immigration, which as you've noted above actually has very little to do with legal immigration from Europe. Meanwhile, the rest of the country recognizes the existential need to protect the economy from an almighty crash.
I've got to the point of not particularly caring about Brexit anymore and what it does or doesn't bring. I find it rich indeed that somebody who thought old Boris was a great bloke when he was backing and encouraging an out vote and now it is out the man is a prat. It is also quite funny to watch the other parties now making political capital out of it all when a bit of co-operation might not go amiss. If I were Teressa May I would call another election and another election until my party was voted out and the others voted in and then see what a complete feck up they make of it all. It is a poisoned challice and is destined to end in tears whoever does the negotiations. I will not be a bit surprised if there is another referendum in the end on this subject and if there is then the vote to leave will be thrown out with the rest of the rubbish. I genuinely believe a lot of people regret their first vote now.
I think Everyone has had enough of the Politicians, Brexit and the Harping on from That prick Corbyn.
Soon be the season starting and we can moan about that.
You missed the main news story today Plymborn. I was scanning the BBC news ticker-tape thing at the bottom of the screen as I got ready this morning,.
Five acid attacks in East London, new Government drugs strategy, Macron and Trump attend Bastille Day celebrations, Beyonce releases picture of her twins.
WHAT? A woman has babies and takes photographs of them? The world will never be the same. FFS BBC, remember you are NOT ITV.