Speakman Speaks part 3

Discussion in 'Sunderland' started by Oliver's Army, May 12, 2021.

  1. The Norton Cat

    The Norton Cat Well-Known Member

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    I think judging a players ability is very subjective. We must all have had debates with mates over certain players, with one liking a player and one not. I used to have this discussion with a mate over Matt le Tissier all the time. Similarly, on this forum there used to be quite lively debate over the pros and cons of Lee Cattermole- it would be interesting to see the stats on him. I've even seen qualified coaches being miles apart on their assessment of a player. The data helps to remove some of that subjectivity. You still need to watch a player because there are obviously aspects that the data can't capture but it can surely help to give a greater depth of understanding of a players abilities. Its another tool to use, not a breaking down of football to simple numbers.
     
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  2. LBW

    LBW Well-Known Member

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    Good post, I just think no matter how much data you gather or coaching you can give in that split second during a match a player can produce something that is down to pure talent.
    I hate the term " raw talent " what does it really mean ? I look at Foden at Man City and think he was born to play football and could play anywhere on the pitch, I said it years ago about Rooney then that sudden burst of brilliance or unpredictability was coached out of him in favour of better pass percentages or tracking back etc. I watched that match last night and really enjoyed it, I couldnt give a toss about possesion or total passes. Some of the play was instinctive not coached.
    Look at Pogba 90 million quid for that donkey, I have seen him have 2 or 3 decent games and nothing to warrant paying that kind of money.
    I am happy with the new approach I just dont buy into you get a better player if you follow the data, no data in the world can predict Rooney putting an overhead kick into the top corner from 20 odd yards.
     
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  3. FellTop

    FellTop Well-Known Member

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    Spot on mate. The players that do instinctive things that take your breath away are the ones we want to watch. Although I have to say I still get off my seat for a great tackle as well! There is clearly something working in English coaching with Foden, Grealish, Sancho etc all coming out of the youth coaching systems. The work the FA did on their coaching approach 8 or 9 years ago has seen much more emphasis on individual players and skills. My own experience has made me think Futsal has also played a part in developing skillful players. I would love to see more investment go toward that for the younger players.
     
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  4. SAFC2403

    SAFC2403 Well-Known Member

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    In that case lets go back to our brilliant scouting system of the last 3-4 years - thats worked wonders for us up to now hasnt it?
    :headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang:
     
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  5. SAFC2403

    SAFC2403 Well-Known Member

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    The data will never get you a better player - what it will do is sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak, much quicker. Ultimately the recruitment team will still need to do their homework on the player - watch games etc and then decide if he is right for SAFC.
     
    #25
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  6. sad-eyed prophet

    sad-eyed prophet Well-Known Member

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    Spot on mate. What the data does is point them in the right direction,it's then down to the watching.
    As a side issue, another thing KS talked about was value. That's another strand to be brought into the acquisition equation.
     
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  7. Nig

    Nig Well-Known Member

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    I'm old fashioned but realise we have to move with the times and not get left behind.
    It all seems manufactured and hopefully there is some human element thrown in.
    After all Quinn and Phillips possibly wouldn't have been picked to partner each other by a computer.
     
    #27
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  8. Gordon Armstrong

    Gordon Armstrong S.A.F.C. Sheriff
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    I don't know why you said 'maybe' 'cos Hoddle definitely was 'special' . . . . he's the most naturally gifted player that I've ever seen 'live' :emoticon-0105-wink:

    Computers can provide stats, but natural talent, like with those that you mention, is obvious . . . . you can't teach it.
     
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  9. The Norton Cat

    The Norton Cat Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that you should mention Iniesta because, to my mind, the production of players like that is the whole point of this integrated approach. Although he clearly is an exceptional natural talent, he's also very much a product of the Barcelona academy system at la Masia and his skills have been moulded to fill Barcelona's requirement of a central midfielder with high technical ability and accurate passing, such as Ivan de la Peña and Guardiola before him.
     
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  10. marcusblackcat

    marcusblackcat SAFC Sheriff
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    What utter garbage. That may have been the way it used to be. But there’s far more to the game now. I’ve watched and coached kids football fir years. I can watch a player play against us and think “world beater” then chat with their gaffer to find out he does it 3 or 4 times a season! Stats show everything. They show facts like that. I’ve also watched players Look like they couldn’t pass water and they’re top scorer and a fantastic player. That’s not “you can spot a player” it’s just seeing the whole picture instead of a snippet.

    unless you think we should send someone to watch a player fir an entire season before making our minds up? By which time someone has signed him and tye club gets it in the neck from the fans! Or, of course, just get Tony Coton looking for the players again
     
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  11. marcusblackcat

    marcusblackcat SAFC Sheriff
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    I hate that too.. but he isn’t English so I have less issue with it!
     
    #31
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  12. FellTop

    FellTop Well-Known Member

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    I have been in the situation when as coaches we have disagreed on the level of a player. It happens I think because we all look at things in slightly different ways. I am looking for technical ability first, can they play off both sides, are they looking to play on the half turn etc. Then I am looking at attitude, what is their reaction like when they lose it etc. Other coaches might have different priorities. What should happen with the new approach is everyone uses the same profile of players to make a judgement so you should get people comparing apples and apples, so to speak. Another benefit should be if Johnson fails to get the team playing then you recruit a replacement that can fit as well.
     
    #32
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  13. LBW

    LBW Well-Known Member

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    I dont think clubs sign players based on watching them once or twice and never said that, a player can make 20 passes a game and find their target almost everytime from 3 yards, that gives him a completion rate of 100%. Trent Alexander Arnold played around 20 passes last night and hit his target at 60 - 70 yards and more almost everytime. Whos the better player?
     
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  14. Makemstine Roger

    Makemstine Roger Well-Known Member

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    BUT BUT IT MUST WORK we have McFazdene a world beater, Winchester but ours has bent sights,i dare not look at the rest of the list as this system shows up the Allardyce one where we could only get scragends like, Kone, Khazri,Kirchoff
     
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  15. LBW

    LBW Well-Known Member

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    No because we didnt have the investment. Nowt to do with data.
     
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  16. marcusblackcat

    marcusblackcat SAFC Sheriff
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    So you think that the only stat is the % of completed passes? When I can look online and find intricate details on long , short, chance creation, assists in passing. I can also find out that Wan Bissaka is a better defender than TAA. (I can also find that out by watching them both)

    stats make a massive difference and are extremely important. EVERY club will use them. Did you rate Allardycecwhen her? He was massive on that. And it kept us up
     
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  17. The Norton Cat

    The Norton Cat Well-Known Member

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    I think a lot of people are making the assumption that data is not used in context, that other mitigating factors are not considered when its used. The very first chapter in Barcelona FC's manual on data analysis (which you can find by googling it- for some reason it won't let me copy the link) emphasises that unless you contextualise the data, its of no use to you.

    In terms of passing, the length of pass is considered. As this article indicates the coordinates of where the pass originated and where the pass was received are recorded. https://www.datofutbol.cl/passing-networks-r/
     
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  18. samwise_new

    samwise_new Well-Known Member

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    'data' is used more and more in the modern game, only have to look at the amount of stats that sky and bt throw up during games.

    for us older blokes it all smacks a bit too much of championship manager and FIFA and many of us used to like the snooker before steve interesting davis came in like a robot, won everything in sight over and over so others copied his approach and the fun went out of the game...so we tend to get a tad worried about the 'robotic' approach.

    that said, it is possibly the fastest way to single out the players that will fit a certain style and more time can (hopefully) be spent watching those ones than the many who will not fit, so realistically it has to benefit the squad...as long as players are still encouraged to 'try things', take men on, use a bit of skill, be individuals etc then maybe a good mix can be found, lately i have watched plenty of premier games and i get the feeling many have gone 'stale', all cat and mouse with managers trying to out-tactic each other, yet many goals come from the quick break or turning play round after a bad pass and these types of attack cannot really be practiced over and over, they are mainly spontaneous and dont half lift an otherwise boring game.
     
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  19. Makemstine Roger

    Makemstine Roger Well-Known Member

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    from what i have seen with the recruitment under LJ using that system, its poo to put it mildly, and i'm not very impressed by it.
     
    #39
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  20. The Norton Cat

    The Norton Cat Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference, though, between recording data, and then analysing it to improve performance, and 'playing the percentages'. Data analysis isn't anything new either. Wing Commander Charles Reep and his acolyte Charles Hughes were using data analysis in the 1950s and their theories led to the development of the long- ball game that everyone came to hate in the 80s. Guardiola uses data analysis in the 21st century to implement the passing football of Barcelona/Man City. Those sides are certainly better to watch than Wimbledon circa 1988.
     
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