Match Day Thread Spurs v Manchester United

I don't, but the bit I think you over looked in those two games is that we played ****e.

It's not like we were unlucky.

Which is why I personally didn't just blame 'the players' for individual errors. We were collectively garbage, both games.

 

By focusing on one player missing the penalty overlooks the fact we really shouldn't be in that situation (relying on a penalty) in the first place, and it was down to piss poor game management and coaching.

Like I said, I've been watching United for 45 years. I do know, and completely understand, what I'm seeing.

 

Which is the point I was making but probably put more eloquently and precisely above.

It's not about individual moments that cost us games. It's not about the "what ifs" at all. What about the other 89 mins? The football we've been playing for at least a year has been dire. 'Playing not to lose.' Fcking ****e.

 

well 45 is not bad. I’ve been watching them for 55 but that’s not the point. We all see what we want to see and ignore what we don’t. Saying players don’t cost you points is not true is it?

I am not for crucifying or blaming players who make mistakes that lead to dropped points. But to lay it ALL (every individual player error ) at the door of coaching and management is not right IMO. They all need to take a share of the blame. If the game management is piss poor, the expensive and experienced players we have don’t take some responsibility for that? That’s the point many players including CR Fernandes Pogba have made recently. They need to take responsibility for what happens on the pitch and not hide behind Ole’s skirt. Because unlike Mourinho he is not willing to throw any players (however underperforming during that match) under the bus.

 

1, when was this ever said?

2, when was this ever said?

 

The best thing about yesterday (and by far the most important imo) was the attitude and effort of the players.

Some serious talking has gone on at the club this week, if it was just some reality being spoken by players,pointed out by management or a combination of both is hard to say but difference was amazing.
If it's long lasting will take a few matches to convince me, whatever has caused the change (hopefully some finger pointing and home truths by all concerned) i really hope there is no feeling of "job done we are quite decent again".

 

cannot be disputed

Absolutely 100% agree.

 

Both have been said explicitly many times here. Especially when Diego and GF mentioned it. Not only errors but no running no passion. Not necessarily by you.


Each time someone here said this player or that player was at fault and caused the goal or couldn’t be arsed and led to the loss the response (again not necessarily from you) was the manager was at fault. Not the player responsibility. It has been said many times. I really can’t be arsed to fish out the many examples.

 

1) Player is simply not good enough to play at the standard required at a top club e.g. Fred, Lindelof

2) Player is not being developed sufficiently to grow, improve and reach their full potential e.g. Greenwood, McTominay, AWB

3) Player not making an effort, not giving 100%. Reasons can be various and are unknown.

It's really not hard to understand is it?

Btw 1) and 2) effect the majority of games over the long-term, they are endemic (for want of a better word) hence why you can attach names to them.

3) is effecting the minority of games, it's sporadic, it isn't attributed to the same players on a long term basis hence why no names attached.

So if we're talking about players, looking at all of that, 3) really is the least of our problems

HTH

 

Who suddenly developed AWB and McT on saturday?
They both had very good games, possibly the best they have had.

 

Bloody hell

 

Yeah, i thought that

 

You thought you made a stupid, ill thought out post?

Then why did you make it

 

Wasn't talking about my post

 

Hey everyone, AWB and McTominay have now developed into top players after playing 1 match against a **** Spurs side

This is the blinkered idiocy you have to deal with on here when trying to have a reasonable debate. Fcking hell

 

You read very strange things into peoples posts

I have always seen McT as a BtoB midfielder but he has been held back from this because other players have been doing "their job" and not bothering to help with others, yesterday he had a chance to get forward because others were putting in the effort to cover if he was caught out of position and it showed.
AWB has never been a problem defensively but has been poor going forward, that has changed slowly since the back end of last season (must be practice not coaching ) and it's starting to be very obvious, the main thing now to improve is his execution of the final ball because his retention and decision making has improved remarkably (again, probably practice ).

 

I don't know why you keep belabouring this point about each player and pointing out mistakes here and there. If they are all fkin up, then the why they are all fk-ups is actually more critical. The fk-up itself merely an anticlimax.

When a team of brilliant players consistently plays horribly, it shows that there is lack of cohesion to deliver as a team. Even if each player is passionate, without cohesion to drive forward and execute against a plan, the result will still be consistently underwhelming. At that point, you have look to develop a plan/strategy for those players to execute against. That plan is developed and implemented by the man in charge of that team. Not the captain, not the senior players... THE MANAGER! If the plan works consistently, the manager becomes a legend. If players in the team rise above and beyond, they will earn their praise.

However, if a team begin to consistently play as though they are journey men, there will be no hiding for the manager. If the manager identifies that there are bad apples in the team, then he must quickly weed them out to ensure their lackluster doesn't affect the broader team.

The point is that, it is the manager that owns the plan and the players execute that plan.

GF actually brought up Bayern the other day after they lost 5-0 as if to justify a point. It just so happened that it was the same match day that their manager didn't show up due to Covid. Consequently, a brilliant team lost 5-0. GF left out that material detail which points to the critical role that managers play in ensuring a team never tanks it as they prepare their teams before a match and make adjustments during games to react to changing circumstances.

Wars are not won by great foot soldiers. It is the events away from the battlefields that determine the outcome of a war.

Last point, I'll leave you with Ole's quote again after Spurs game which double downs down on where the absolute responsibility lies:

‘Of course, when you change to a back three and don’t get a result you’re going to be scrutinised.

‘But we felt it worked, the coaches have done a very, very good job to put that in place.’
​

Now, let's end this madness of looking to blame the next player that makes a mistake.

 

No mate you read very strange into my post. You completely missed the point. The point was that problems around player performance is roughly based on 3 different areas.

To answer your point, what I said was developing a player sufficiently, to grow, to reach his full potential, is long term process observed over a series of games against a range of opposition of varying ability. It isn't judged on 1 match. Nobody is saying they don't have good matches ffs, Greenwood, McTominay, AWB have all had good games in the past, just not consistently, that only demonstrates they are quality and have potential. But how the coaches nurture and develop that is clearly lacking. Btw Sancho will be the next one on that list

 

Btw just to add, McTominay's best game by far was in the 9-0 against Southampton about 8 months ago. It's been a mixed bag since, often poor and mostly underachieving.

Hence why 1 game is not a good enough indicator of player development. I genuinely thought everyone knew this basic premise but hey ho, maybe I've entered the Twilight Zone or sumnt.

 

Because we were in total control and he felt free to push forward.
Have you really not noticed AWB improvement over the last few months?
I worry about Sancho, i have not seen a big name player yet who left Dortmund (outside the BL) who has looked anything like as good elsewhere
Aubamayang
Reus
Mhkytarian (looks decent in the French league now which is telling)
Kagawa
etc

Sancho is young and has a chance to get used to the speed and physicality of the PL but needs to play on the right.