The 2019-2020 season.

Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by Cromercanary, Apr 29, 2019.

  1. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Tettey is many things, but the one thing he is not is a genuine pivot. He lacks the ball control, ball retention and passing skills of a genuine pivot, which is why we virtually always play him in tandem with a second "notional" DM, e.g. Trybull, McLean, Vrancic, Leitner, none of whom are particularly well suited to the role. A genuine pivot has the vision and passing skills to initiate attacks from deep himself, combined with the defensive discipline to hold his position and not go bombing forward leaving the poor CBs exposed behind him. Our tandem DMs are supposed to do, together, what a genuine pivot does singlehandedly. But since none of them are actually specialists in the position, they often end up slowing down the forward movement, only to then bomb forward, leaving vast areas of undefended space between themselves and the CBs.

    Re. the recent improvement, I think you can explain it in two words, Duda and Rupp. Both have made a significant contribution to our becoming far better organised out of possession. Rupp is giving Aarons the defensive help he lacks when Buendia plays, and covering his forward runs; Duda's contribution in defence has been massive, including closing down the space on the edge of our penalty area at set pieces and preventing shots from half-cleared balls.
    The stats for the last 4 games, in which one or both have featured, show goals conceded dropping from almost 2 pg to less than 1 pg, a GD of 0, and only a very marginal reduction in GF pg (1 pg as opposed to 1.07 pg). I know 4 games is early days, but the direction looks good to me.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  2. Cromercanary

    Cromercanary Well-Known Member
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  3. carrowcanario

    carrowcanario Well-Known Member

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    No we've been steadily improving since we've been able to regularly play 2 recognised CB's. We've also improved set piece defending since Hanley's been in the team.
     
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  4. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    I disagree that Tettey "lacks the ball control, ball retention and passing skills of a genuine pivot", Robbie. He's not a Yaya Toure (not many are), but his pass success ratio is above 87% which is an indication of success in all 3 categories, though he does lack the long through ball ability. That's why he needs a Vrančic or McLean next to him. Tettey has also improved dramatically under DF which suggests that good coaching is going on.

    I agree with you about Duda and Rupp improving the quality of our play, both with and without the ball. Many are surprised that they've gone straight into the line-up, but there's a reason they were playing at the highest level of the Bundesliga. The quality of our overall play has improved dramatically with them in the team. They provide poise we lacked before and their experience and natural skills influence other players as well. I agree with Canario though that Handley has also improved us at set pieces. It's Duda and Rupp though, who give me hope that our results can improve through the rest of the season.

    Edit: Good blog on Duda's impact here:

    https://readnorwich.com/2020/02/03/...in-the-summer-transfer-window/?poll-results=1
     
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    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
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  5. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    I'm an admirer of Tettey, Rick, indeed I love the guy; but much like Russ Martin, it's more his character, attitude and love of the club which endears him, not his limited skills. Rather than indicating "ball control, ball retention and passing skills", his pass success rate is almost entirely a reflection of the type of passes he now predominantly makes, i.e. short, sideways and backwards. And his "improvement" is due to DF's recognition of his limitations, rather than any late blossoming of hitherto undemonstrated quality. He is an essential component in our team, but only because we lack a genuine pivot.
    Regarding a contract extension, Amadou's departure and Sitti's arrival signals Webber's acceptance that we are almost certainly going to be playing Championship football next season. If we had another season ahead of us in the EPL and were looking to improve, IMO AT would not feature in the plans.
     
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  6. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    I made a point of watching Tettey all the way through the Newcastle game and was genuinely impressed by the improvement in his passing. Yes, there are a lot of short passes, but his central positioning and ability to read the game allows others to express themselves and he can make longer passes when appropriate. He and McLean also seem to be working well together and Kenny is capable of longer through balls.

    The other difference is having a skilful AM in Duda, who along with Rupp has brought a new sophistication to our attack and the defending when the ball is lost. The current line-up has a good balance overall (which we were certainly lacking earlier in the season). I'm actually looking forward to the Liverpool game.
     
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  7. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Newcastle are probably the worst side in the league when it comes to pressing the opposition high up the pitch. Tettey enjoyed a stroll in the (St James's) park on Saturday! It'll be very different against Liverpool.
     
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  8. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    I get where you’re coming from but I have to lean towards what Rick is saying I’m afraid Robbie.

    I have also (weird how we all focused on it) have been looking at Tettey closely over the last few matches - while I completely agree that his high pass success rate is largely down to his passing choices, there are a couple of subjective, unscientific points which I think are worth considering:
    - having watched him, it’s very rare that he makes a pass which leaves his teammate with a lot to do, I.e. a hospital pass (or merely a risk one)
    - he has this odd ability to look out of control and yet keep the ball and pass it to a teammate (safely - see above)

    The first skill doesn’t necessarily increase our attacking ability, but it does improve our ball retention which builds pressure and allows the player who has received the ball the time to make an attacking decision.

    The second skill makes me nervous! And I think adds to the doubts as to his quality. But it does create space and pull opposition defensive positions, helping other attacking players.

    I appreciate that those are both impossible to verify with stats etc so boil down to my opinion watching him, but I think if you look at him again you might agree.

    The final thing to say is he does actually add an attacking threat - he gets quite far forward for a defensive midfielder and often is in shooting positions. They are low probability chances, but they do cause the opposition to commit a couple of defenders to blocking when the ball comes to him, again creating more space.

    In short, I’m not entirely sure what he brings, but Farke rates him, I get the feeling he does a decent job without being able to back it up statistically so those two combined are good enough for me!
     
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  9. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    As I said in reply to Rick, I too see AT as currently an essential component in our team. But that to me amounts to a criticism of the whole, rather than a compliment to Tettey himself. There was an article recently (I've tried to find it again but failed) about how our fate this season was foretold in last season's defensive stats. That's exactly right, and I have bored people stiff on here by saying the same thing ad nauseam. The arrival of Duda and Rupp is last ditch recognition of the problems that have been costing us all season -- not CB problems but defensive failings in midfield. To properly address those failings we need an upgrade on Tettey in the form of a genuine single pivot. With Amadou quite understandably leaving, never having really being tried, we have to hope that Sitti will provide what we need next season (no good waiting until the season after to address the problems).
     
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  10. Cromercanary

    Cromercanary Well-Known Member
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  11. carrowcanario

    carrowcanario Well-Known Member

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    I agree to some extent, I don't put a lot of faith in passing success percentages as it often favour players that play the easy pass rather than the most effect. Mos best passes are not the easy one. I think we need an upgrade for Tettey whatever we end up next season as his impact on the game is only going to diminish as he gets older. My main concern with tettey is his ability to transition defence to attack. No issue with extending his contract as I think he still has a limitted role to play going forward
     
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  12. Cromercanary

    Cromercanary Well-Known Member
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    .....or sideways, or backwards.... <whistle>
     
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  13. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    Lots of issues here, but Tettey defies logic in many ways. At 34 he continues to improve as a player and his knee problems have all but disappeared this season. The former is because he's a good fit in Farkeball due to his role in keeping possession (never easy in the PL).

    When he arrived, DF favoured a 4-1-4-1 formation, but soon realised that it wouldn't work here. Robbie says that's because we lack a 'genuine single pivot player', which is true to an extent. A bigger reason lay in our young FBs who have the pace and skill to bomb forward in attack. A DM on his own would struggle to cope with counters with one or both flanks exposed. With McLean beside him, Tettey can. If Lewis commits forward, Kenny can fill the void on the left flank and if it's Aarons, Tettey fills in on the right or as CB cover when Zimbo spreads to the right. This has made us tighter in defence.

    Tettey(right footed) and McLean(left footed) have also proved effective in working the ball out of defence to maintain possession with Tettey acting as central pivot to pass to the best placed player until a gap opens ahead of him. When pressed, McLean drops back to provide an extra outlet, but when not he moves further forward if the LB is in position to form a 4-1-4-1 in attack. Duda and Rupp have made this very effective, with Rupp covering if Aarons commits far forward. With more clinical finishing, this would have produced a win at Newcastle.
     
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  14. canary-dave

    canary-dave Well-Known Member

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    Is it just me or are we getting a few posters saying more or less the same thing using thousands of words to say them?

    I don't want anyone to stop posting, although we have lost some good posters over this very issue. Has nobody heard the expression "you can have too much of a good thing?"

    Very sorry if I am out of order! :(
     
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  15. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    But Rick, there's no good reason to allow both flanks to become exposed, as we too often do. Are our FBs better attacking players than Liverpool's, who almost never simultaneously occupy advanced positions, leaving both flanks exposed? If our FBs are going to play as de facto wing backs, then we should play 3 at the back. Otherwise, one or other FB should stay in position, making up a three with the two CBs. Either way, a single genuine pivot in front of the back 3 would be perfectly adequate, leaving 6 players free when in possession to focus on attack without leaving either flank or centre exposed.
     
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  16. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Totally out of order <laugh>
     
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  17. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    I'm not against a back 3 when we have 3 CBs available, which has been seldom so far this season. I don't think we have been commiting both FBs forward at the same time lately, which is an improvement. DF's solution thus makes sense to me.

    (Kept this short to avoid boring Dave! ;))
     
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  18. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    Reasons for optimism about the rest of the season:

    * Most of our players are fit again and Klose is nearing a return

    * Duda and Rupp have significantly improved our play in defence and attack

    * DF's tactics have improved from experience

    * With 3 CBs fit, 3 at the back is an option

    * Our improved form of late suggests that we are capable of a good run of games

    That's my hope anyway
     
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  19. DUNCAN DONUTS

    DUNCAN DONUTS SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR

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    No way Farke is going to tinker with the formation and play 3 centre backs now, we only have 13 games left and performances have improved.
     
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  20. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    Finally a result between our competition goes our way!

    I think for us to be safe, the target is making up nine points on Brighton. If we manage that (a huge ask, yes) I think we will be safe.
     
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