1. Log in now to remove adverts - no adverts at all to registered members!

The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Thursday 10th June)

Discussion in 'Leeds United' started by ellandback, Jun 10, 2021.

  1. Aski

    Aski Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,728
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    I love how everyone is focusing upon the actual date of the contract. That is unfortunately not the be all and end all of it. People keep saying there is no sentiment or moral obligation within law, but there is such as thing as implied intent through custom or usage.

    All Leipzig need to prove to quash the date issue is the reason why this particular date was used. So evidence that historically the date is used as a end date for players contracts and the 1st of July is used for new contracts, could be conceived as a defining line between what is classed as the previous season and the new season. If within the court proceedings Leeds are asked for details of expiry of playing and sponsorship contracts and to explain why particular dates are used, depending on those dates could count for or against us.

    The last line of the quote is something I covered either yesterday or the day before, with regards to Force Majeure or so called "Acts of God" clauses. Thus Leipzig entering into communication to amend the contract because of the exceptional issues due to COVID, may be seen by the courts as a positive, although of course that depends upon what the actual contract states regarding this type of issue, and also whether the courts decide that COVID issues fall within those exceptions.

    The problem with this issue, is that everyone (including myself) are only able to comment upon snippets that we hear from a variety of media sources. Without the actual contract to read, then none of us have any idea how a court may judge the situation. All I can do is provide instances where by what we consider to be cast tight evidence in our favour may not be as cast tight as we believe.
     
    #41
    Whitejock and FORZA LEEDS like this.
  2. Irishshako

    Irishshako Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    43,891
    Likes Received:
    39,858
    <applause>
     
    #42
  3. 2 pennth

    2 pennth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    10,791
    Likes Received:
    12,775
    Seems you do talk sense sometimes full marks to the Scottish FA for trying to find a way forward instead of insulting all and sundry I may even cheer them on in their first game <grr>
     
    #43
    Irishshako likes this.
  4. ristac

    ristac Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    25,547
    Likes Received:
    27,659
    I just don't see Dallas being dropped, I am not saying I would not drop Dallas but Bielsa won't. So we have Phillips and Dallas in the middle, Harrison and Raphinha out wide, as far as I see it one position to be fought between Roberts, Rodrigo, Klich unless Rodrigo can grab Bamfords position.

    I'd like a proper attacking midfielder to join, I see it as more likely than a replacement for when Philips doesn't play as I feel we have that covered now
     
    #44
  5. ristac

    ristac Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    25,547
    Likes Received:
    27,659
    I've a feeling Alioski will be the next to sign a new one
     
    #45
    hemase, southernwhite and Irishshako like this.
  6. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2011
    Messages:
    19,751
    Likes Received:
    27,237
    Not to get into it all again mate, but would only add re the contracts, and I mean all contracts for loan players and players running out of contract in June or sooner. Fifa stated that it is the clubs who can allow a contract to run on or be extended. Many clubs didnt like Burnley for example who sent all loan players back because they didnt want to pay their wages. Think you’ll find that also has an effect on our situation too. Force majure ends when the contract end date ends
     
    #46
    wakeybreakyheart and Irishshako like this.
  7. wakeybreakyheart

    wakeybreakyheart Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2011
    Messages:
    19,679
    Likes Received:
    20,085
    Oh dear
     
    #47
    Marcos Barber likes this.
  8. Leedsoflondon

    Leedsoflondon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2014
    Messages:
    15,741
    Likes Received:
    17,516
    It’s great, the club being loyal to these players and it’s way too early in the window to make judgements but with the signing of Harrison and Roberts new deal, unless they keep improving on their potential, at this stage we haven’t really strengthened. How do we higher than ninth with the same squad of players (as the blunts found out to their cost). We talk about the U23s but once the first teamers got fit they didn’t even make the bench. In fairness, I’m happy to consolidate and avoid second season syndrome and with Bielsa that should be easily avoidable.
     
    #48
  9. Aski

    Aski Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,728
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Doc when I meant player contracts I didnt mean in respect of COVID, I was referring to historically.

    As I say I may be wrong, but what I am getting at if Leipzig can show that Sponsorship contracts generally end on 30 June, Kit deals end 30th June etc etc, that gives them a footing into the argument over the 30th June. ie When did our sponsorship deal end with 32Red. Did that contract say a specific date, was it deliberately extended to cover the recommencement of the fixtures, or was it generally accepted between us and 32Red, that the sponsorship finished when the final game was played. I don't know the answer to any of those questions, but those are the types of questions a court will probably look to receive answers on.

    The court could accept all that evidence and still agree that we are in the right. I am not arguing that we are in the wrong, just trying to get it into people's minds that what appears to be a certain fact, isn't always the case, even in law.

    Obviously from our point of view, we feel that we have a strong case to defend it, because there may be 30 odd additional clauses that work in our favour. The courts may well accept that the 30th June means the 30th June, but what I am getting at is that they may also not, if Leipzig can provide sufficient evidence to sway that argument.

    If we as a club show that all or a majority of our other contracts state "to the end of season xx/xx" as opposed to a specific date, then that in itself would strengthen our argument in relation to the date of 30th June
     
    #49
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
    SIDDAS, Doc, Marcos Barber and 2 others like this.
  10. Whitejock

    Whitejock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2011
    Messages:
    20,641
    Likes Received:
    19,008
    Aski, I really haven't a clue about this tbf, but I see where you're going pattern. But is it germane to this truly unique legal situation? Everything you've stated is for a standard season, but uniquely, last season was most certainly not a standard season, so the normal patterns cannot be expected to apply (although some, or even most, do.).

    Btw, were the findings published by FIFA to explain the detail leading to their decision? Surely that's what we all want to read before we put in our 3d (lippier than @2 pennth :D)?
     
    #50
    wakeybreakyheart and 2 pennth like this.

  11. 2 pennth

    2 pennth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    10,791
    Likes Received:
    12,775
    I don’t mind a bit of competition, :emoticon-0102-bigsm
     
    #51
  12. Aski

    Aski Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,728
    Likes Received:
    6,845

    And that I expect is Leipzig's exact point WJ.

    Leipzig will be saying the contract was agreed using the terms that in any normal season would support their case. They will be inferring that we are using the "Act of God" issue due to Covid to get around that fact, given that we are reliant upon the fact that the club was not promoted at the time the loan agreement expired. It is up to Leipzig to prove that the 30th June is an arbitrary date that is accepted within football as being the end of the season, and thus the date and the term are interchangeable. If Leipzig provide supporting evidence to that fact, then we as a club, will need to provide evidence to contradict that, hence why I mentioned about contracts with kit suppliers and shirt sponsors.

    I have no idea if they will be able to prove that or not, but that is where the legal term of "implied intent from customs or usage" comes from. If they show documentary evidence over the past how many years to show that the date has been used in numerous commercial contracts between various clubs, and football associated parties, then a court may look favourably on that argument.

    That is why I am saying that we as fans cannot jump up and down shouting "30th June" or even "30 Juni" for our German speaking readers as if that is the be all that ends all.

    As for the Fifa site, being the sad person that I am I have checked and its still not been published as yet. Obviously once we see the full findings, it will make it easier to understand what the issues are and whether we have a chance of winning or not.

    I'm not saying that we have cocked up, or are trying to pull a fast one ( as obviously no one on here knows the full details of the contract between both clubs), I'm just trying to highlight that what may appear as water tight terms to ourselves, such as dates, even within law is not always the case.

    Just as a total aside, whilst on the FIFA site, I read up on a case where a manager and assistant manager left an Egyptian League team, following their season being suspended due to war. Both sued the club to get full payment of their contract, however whilst CAS agreed that the manage should receive compensation of $135k, the assistant manager lost his case, and was ordered to pay back something like $40k. It should however also be noted that both these guys had contract that said they expired at the end of 20xx/xx season, cant remember the exact years.

    I should also confirm that the thrupenny bit was my favourite pre decimal coin ;)
     
    #52
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
  13. Gessa

    Gessa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    11,958
    Likes Received:
    21,900
    Seem to remember my older brother, having the newspaper folded under his arm, walking in the direction of the outside bog using the words ' I'm off for a thrupenny bit'
     
    #53
    wakeybreakyheart, Whitejock and Aski like this.
  14. Aski

    Aski Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,728
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Your family were lucky, an outside toilet.

    We had to go to the nearest stream
     
    #54
    Whitejock and Gessa like this.
  15. Gessa

    Gessa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    11,958
    Likes Received:
    21,900
    You Jammy ****er, you had running water <laugh>
     
    #55
  16. Aski

    Aski Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,728
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Not in the winter months, it was frozen solid, as was the water in the stream ;)
     
    #56
  17. esteponawhite

    esteponawhite Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    7,288
    Likes Received:
    8,294
    Luxury, we used to suck moisture owt o'stones.
     
    #57
  18. Gessa

    Gessa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    11,958
    Likes Received:
    21,900
    There weren't many stones on t'slag heaps next to us
     
    #58
  19. Aski

    Aski Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    3,728
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Wow you are so upper class, slag heaps indeed, around where I lived we just had heaps of slags ;)
     
    #59
  20. Gessa

    Gessa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    11,958
    Likes Received:
    21,900

    You win <laugh>
     
    #60
    Marcos Barber, Whitejock and Aski like this.

Share This Page