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The season 2020 - 2021.

Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by Walsh.i.am, Jul 7, 2020.

  1. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    To the contrary, according to Soccerbase, Hanley made 17 appearances in his year at Newcastle: 10 in the league and 7 in cup matches. Given the other CB options Newcastle had, that seems a reasonable proportion to me.

    https://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=54555
     
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    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  2. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll find that all 10 league appearances were in Newcastle's 2016--2017 Championship-winning season. He remained at Newcastle for a further season when they were back in the EPL; zero league appearances, one appearance in the League Cup (see GH's own Wikipedia page).

    Having checked again, the latter paragraph is wrong. He was sold to us early in that second season, so the "zero appearances", while correct, is misleading. My apologies.

    As regards the sentence you quoted in my reply to Rob, that too was inaccurate in so far as it implied that the zero appearances reflected Benitez's assessment of GH as an EPL centreback. It would be fairer to say that Benitez's willingness to let GH join us is indicative of Benitez's ......... etc.
     
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  3. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    If you disagree with what I post, then produce a reasoned counter-argument. That's what I try to do when I disagree with something posted. Why don't you start a poll and see how many people would rather I ceased to post. I'm quite happy to abide by a democratic decision. Put a week's time limit on for voting <cheers>
     
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  4. ncgandy

    ncgandy Well-Known Member

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    That's because they show up when other posters quote them. A definite flaw in the system.
     
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  5. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    Oh for ****'s sake Robbie. I have said all along that I would say the evidence is largely that Hanley is not good enough. I am not "admitting" anything.

    Your post said that "the one thing we do know as regards our CBs is that Hanley is not EPL quality". That's a word for word copy. I am construing it as what it says, nothing more or less. I am not attaching any meaning beyond yours - which was using the word "we" incorrectly as I say above and purports to claim absolute knowledge of something you cannot possibly know.

    Now you're arguing the toss on stuff which I am not even disputing. Even worse, you are now deliberately straw-manning the counterpoints I made by ignoring half of them.

    It's pathetic Robbie, it really is. Even in your subsequent emails you accepted it was a case of evidence, not absolute knowledge.

    Seriously, stop. This is getting silly.
     
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  6. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    This is a very odd argument for you to make, Robbie, given that we bought Hanley from Newcastle the season that they returned to the Premier League. So other than perhaps a couple of matches at the start of the season (when he was presumably for sale) I am not sure I understand why you think that shows Benitez would not have played him, when it was impossible...
     
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  7. GozoCanary

    GozoCanary Well-Known Member

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    For me, these arguments about Hanley miss the point that having a good defence is down to a collective team effort, not any one individual. I can imagine a situation where Club A has Central Defenders B and C who are 'better' players than Central Defenders E and F at another club, and yet E and F function better as a defensive unit and so their club has a better defence despite having 'weaker' players.
     
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  8. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Rob, I can assure you that I have no truck with the idea of "absolute knowledge". Knowledge is simply a sub-class of "cases of evidence" (of which belief and opinion, for example, are other sub-classes). In light of that, you might care to revisit my elucidation of what I meant by "we know", and the substitutability in some contexts of "it is known" for "we know", i.e. the impersonal pronoun for the personal. Otherwise, since neither of us (presumably) wants to embark further on an epistemological discussion of the concept of "knowledge", I agree it's time to stop. <ok>
     
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  9. Canary Spring

    Canary Spring Well-Known Member

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    You can also factor in a team's style of play, if it hasn't been mentioned yet.
     
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  10. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    These are the elements often overlooked by statistical analysis. I suspect Lambert's triple promotion teams wouldn't have ranked high in the stats, but they achieved a fairly comfortable PL survival. Some aspects of football will continue to escape statistical analysis, and that's as it should be.
     
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  11. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    Fine. The thing is, weaselly semantic defences aside, you could have just said that you meant something else, when it was first pointed out that it seemed you were speaking for more than just yourself and you were holding out an opinion as definitive.

    Personally, I would recommend not saying “we” when you mean “I”. Similarly, within reason, I recommend not suggesting you “know” something when it’s easy enough to say you “firmly believe” or similar, if that’s what you actually mean. But if you find you want to use “we know” in future, please count yourself on notice that it might well piss off some people if they don’t feel they do know it, even if you are using an oblique meaning for “we know”. That’s just my advice though and I will let it lie there.
     
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  12. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    Rob, will you please stop misrepresenting me. Let me repeat, once and for all:

    (1) "The one thing we do know as regards our CBs is that Hanley is not EPL quality". This is, word for word, my original claim. At no point have I retracted it, or qualified it. All my posts on the subject thereafter have either been defences of it or attempts to correct misunderstandings of it.

    (2) The claim was not an expression of my personal opinion about Grant Hanley; it was intended to be understood analogously to how you understand e.g. the BBC's medical correspondent when he writes an article about "what we know about the new variant Sars-Cov-2 virus". The "we" refers collectively to the medical experts whose verdict on the matter the correspondent is reporting. Analogously, when I said "we know", the "we" referred collectively to, as I put it in an earlier reply, "the world of EPL football"; I quote:
    "In an age when Premier league clubs commit great sums to talent spotting and EPL quality CBs are a sought after commodity, Grant Hanley's name has been conspicuous by its absence from even rumoured interest, never mind anything more serious. The truth is, the world of EPL football has long since made its judgement, whatever a handful of us City supporters might think."

    (3) I happen to agree with what I say is the "world of EPL football's" verdict; you say you are inclined to agree with it; canario and Rick say they disagree with it. All fine; what each of us thinks about Grant Hanley is not the issue. Anyone who wants to dispute what I said should provide evidence that I am wrong about "the verdict of the world of EPL football". For myself, I don't propose to post on this topic again.
     
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  13. carrowcanario

    carrowcanario Well-Known Member

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    And the hole gets deeper. At least now you're going to stop diging.
     
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  14. Walsh.i.am

    Walsh.i.am Well-Known Member
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    And now, as an aside to all the incessant bitching about Grant Handy,
    for something completely different - and far, far more important.
     
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  15. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    Surely it's the club's responsibility to take the correct precautions. Why should clubs who are following guidelines suffer because others don't?
     
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  16. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    Robbie

    Read that back to yourself maybe in the morning and ask yourself if it doesn’t come across as ridiculous.

    You go so far as to claim that you know what “the world of football” knows

    Yet you have no report, authored by “the world of football”, with detailed study of Hanley’s footballing qualities

    Nor have you undertaken a rigorous process of peer review of that report

    Nor is there any underlying evidence to this fictitious report, which interviews all managers of the last ten years in the Premier League to assess their views

    Let alone the views of their scouts

    And said fictitious report seems to omit all the points we made above, such as the fact that Hanley has indeed played in the Premier League

    Nor does it take into account that Hanley might have actually improved over the last couple of years

    And the people best-placed to assess that, have they been interviewed for your fictitious report? I.e. the Norwich City coaching and selection staff? I’d be interested in their views. Unless of course they don’t count as the world of football I suppose

    So I’m beginning to doubt that you’ve really thought your defence through

    Because there is no “we” in the context you are holding out, as if “we” covers you, and “the world of football” but excludes everyone else on this forum

    In fact, there is no “world of football’s verdict” to speak of

    Unless you have unilaterally decided that you are “the world of football”

    Or you are so arrogant as to claim to speak for “the world of football”

    In which case, I think the case is closed
     
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    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
  17. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    I lost interest in this thread a while ago because such unfounded claims about players. Give your own view by all means but don't pretend that it has wider significance unless you quote the source(s) for that or statistical evidence which can be evaluated by others. Hanley is currently rated at 7.2 on WhoScored, our second highest rated player, and that's good enough for me. I could care less whether somebody does or does not think he's PL quality.
     
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  18. DHCanary

    DHCanary Very Well-Known Member
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    Krul has CoVid, as well as 2 other staff/players.
     
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  19. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    Bugger. Good timing for Krul though.
     
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  20. Walsh.i.am

    Walsh.i.am Well-Known Member
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    #800
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