Match Day Thread Time to look at our defence 2023/2024

Soft goals, and own goals are our problems this season ,this is area Brendan Rodgers have to look into urgently.
Our strength is that we are scoring goals otherwise we are going to be in trouble.
TEAM ACCORDING TO LEAGUE POSITION AND GOALS CONCEDED
Arsenal 10
Liverpool 18
Chelsea 17
Manchester City 15
Everton 13
Newcastle 21
Tottenham 15
Southampton 14
Manchester United 19
Aston Villa 16
Swansea 19
Stoke 20
Hull 18
Norwich 28
West Brom 21
Cardiff 22
West Ham 19
Crystal Palace 22
Fulham 26
Sunderland 28

 

All this shows is that apart from Arsenal, Everton & Southampton our defensive record isn't much worse than most other teams in the league.

 

Lucas was very sloppy which ultimately led to their goal. Johnson was sloppy when he lost Jarvis. This is the problem and has been the problem with our team for a while - lapses in concentration. Enrique and Johnson are our biggest culprits in this dept.

And I think Allen should be playing deeper than Lucas - he is far more comfortable picking up the ball from defence and providing options.

 

Still on my Johnson rant but that's the point. I forgive both him and Enrique for being dodgey at the back because they're asked to be so far forward for so much of the match, weirdly it started working on the right when Skerts got braver and started launching out right to clear up behind an advanced Johnson.

However, they're only forgiven if they don't lose the ball stupidly up front and get turned. And they're only forgiven if they produce up front. Johnson dId way too much of the first for the last few matches and only once did the second today. In fact it aannoyed me more because I thought "if you can cross like that why on gods earth are you cutting in and hitting the defender every other time!!!!"

Allen deeper works . But he needs to cut out giving the ball away. But then the entire team did it today.

 

Slightly harsh on the lad - he did lose a few times but not that many. 92% pass completion

Agree completely on Johnson

 

I say the same about Lucas. If you're the only midfielder in 30 yards at times, giving the ball away is a no no.

Not all their fault, system, but that's just the way it is. Like the keeper rolling it to the opposition forward.

 

It takes 2 to make a pass. If players don't make them selves available for an easy pass then it means there is more chance of the man on the ball giving it away.

 

That be that 30 yards. After watching Newcastle, if we play as we do we need a tiote type player, anticipates

 

Allen can't play behind Lucas. Lucas has one role and role only. When he is focused on it he is fantastic, when he has other things to worry about (pretty much Gerrard) he gets crowded out and has no space to do what he does best.

His job is to break up an opposition attack and turn that over to the attack. He doesn't have to stop it, he only needs to get into a position to slow it down. When he has the space between the defence and the midfield, he can mark his man and go for the ball via tackle or pressing. When Gerrard or Allen or Henderson get in those spaces, he makes the mistake of letting them handle it -which they do, less often than he does. He suffers and has a poor game as a result.

Lucas is also capable of one pass. To Gerrard or Hendo, from the centre line to about 10 yards away. He gets the ball from defence, and passes it on. The longer this chain of passes, the more opportunity for the run to break down. Allen behind him adds a link to the chain where it doesn't belong.

 

look you are right but lucas is a bit better than this at passing. this pass completion stat is very high. and there nothing at all wrong with short passes.

I find that our BIG issue is donkeys who take 3 touches to get a pass off and players like lucas or allen find themselves under pressure as they make a run and a skertl or a henderson or a sahko delay the ball or pass it behind them or to tehir weaker foot by mistake etc. Lucas has a role, allen can have a role but together? its like utd you can put in cleverly and carrick and get a result, once an rvp is on fire up top and you play width like valencia etc. It all falls apart when that rvp is not playing well.

LFc have a litany if issues to improve on but its all buried under the brilliance of suarez. Take that away and the frailties would be exposed badly.

By contrast we have to look to arsenal and say they have it mostly together. defense working well, keep not making errors (for once) midfield a real top qualtiy otfit and one guy up top thats doing fairly well. thier issue if two injuries and it can all go away. Their defense could fall apart and if giroud ogt injured they have to buy.

 

Don't get me wrong MITO I think Lucas is better at a lot of things than just passing. But he's not the passer in the squad. He deserves a place and is vital for our team. But he's not good at controlling the flow of the entire pitch like Alonso was. More like Mascherano, who would break down the opposition's attack, quickly turn around, and just hand it over to those more capable and creative. This doesn't have to be a 50 yard Gerrard classic. But it breaks down when we complicate things, like when Allen plays - he tries a bunch of clever one two's, ball shuffles, sideways passes to Lucas, etc. Lucas just wants it out of the centre of the pitch, and Allen doesn't do that. He keeps it there, which is my main criticism of the lad. Henderson certainly isn't a donkey, and neither is Sakho. Henderson is a great runner with the ball. He tends to receive the ball on the wings or directly from the defenders though. He then has to control it with those "three touches", which isn't even what he's supposed to be doing.

Sakho is a central defender. He's very smart and if you saw him today, he made some great forward passes. He's always bombing forward and of course he's going to look more like Carroll than Suarez. But that's fine at LFC. As long as Sakho/Agger/Toure/Skrtel can get that ball to Lucas, who can get that ball to Gerrard/Henderson, who can get it to Coutinho, who can set up Suarez/Sturridge, we'll do well. This is why I want Agger in the squad over Skrtel/Toure. He's a ball player and yes, he'll make more mistakes because of it. But he offers much more than any of the other two combined when it comes to setting up attacks. Skrtel clears it all the time, and Toure positions himself fantastically, but they don't pass it forward to Lucas nearly as much as Agger does.

Agree with what you say about our issues. BR looks to be working on them behind the scenes though, which is positive.

 

Can't agree with that one.
All Agger does which the other defenders don't do is make 40yard surging forward runs when there's no pass open. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. All our defenders are fine playing the ball on the ground and passing it up to the midfield. I've seen Skrtel drop the shoulder and turn the attacker the wrong way so he can pass rather than hoof, more times this season than he's done in the previous 4.

When it comes down to it; All our defenders can pass on the deck sufficiently but one of the four can't defend corners or high balls to save his life. We concede from corners or high balls, ergo, that one defender shouldn't play. Sakho and Toure for me with Skrtel as backup until Agger learns what his number one job is.

 

In the right system, Lucas is very good. Unfortunately, this system doesn't suit him. We want to play a controlled passing game and dominating possession.

As you say, Lucas is good at breaking up play when he has no one else to worry about. Unfortunately, Rodgers wants to play Gerrard deeper alongside him.

Now in terms of actual performance, Lucas has been poor. He has put in a high volume of tackles but his tackle success is actually poor. It's around 45% - compare to someone like Dembele who is at 75%.

 

Come on JS! you have an idea in your head but you haven't thought it through!!!!. Lucas is a far better player than Dembele as his play is totally different. Dembele is a Masch type player - the first objective is to tackle. Lucas on the other hand is a space-filler/cover merchant who doesn't need to commit to the tackle to achieve his primary function of breaking up/slowing down/channelling attacks. The added bonus to his play is that having got possession of the ball he quickly looks to pass it to somebody who can use that ball to the best effect.

As for "We want to play a controlled passing game and dominating possession" - well no we don't! We want to win games with the squad of players that we have got. We DO NOT want to be hidebound to a system. If Rodgers has proved anything during his time at Anfield it is that he has the capacity to develop a style of play that suits Liverpool and the players that we have. That style is unique.

 

Lucas's objective is to protect the defence. He has failed spectacularly this season.

EDIT:

Rodger's philosophy is to play possession football. He has been forced to adapt because he has to accommodate for certain players.

Over the next few seasons, we will see more players come in who will fit his desired style.

 

Oh you are so sure are you? Rodgers has and will continue to have a pragmatic view regarding systems and their strict implementation. Provided that the players and coaches develop a system that is effective for them and can be referenced to the style that Rodgers would like he will be more than happy.

Football has/is/and will continue to be primarily about combing players skills and not about straight-jacketing into rigid systems!

 

And you believe Rodgers's desired style is to be dominated in the midfield and simply rely on SAS to win us matches?

Rodgers's philosophy is about possession, passing, fluidity and versatility - playing to strict systems is the opposite of what he is trying to achieve.

Rodgers has tried to do this but the static nature of our midfield and the un-intelligence of our fullbacks doesn't help him. Hence why he's looking at getting new full backs and a new midfielders in to help complete the jig saw.

 

Rodgers does have a philosophy, but I think he's been flexible enough to adapt it in areas where it's become clear to him that it doesn't work with the players he has.
I think some of his dodgy formation experiments were/are part of that process. I'm sure given time he'll try to bring in the players he feels are more suited to his vision, but for the moment it's in all our interests to get the best out of the ones we have.

 

Has he? We are second in the league after all.

Whilst I agree having Gerrard sitting deep next to him doesn't really suit him (or Gerrard either IMO) the biggest issue we have had defensively this season is due to the constant changing of the back four. The fact is the very best defences don't even need one holding midfielder never mind two. They just need good midfielders in front of them who are positionally very astute and who don't give the ball away too much....i.e. Lucas.

As for the tackling stat well that's a bit of a misnomer too. Lucas has never been a dive in kind of player. More Hamann than Mascher if you like. In fact the more Lucas stays on his feet the happier I am. The Reds website has his tackle success percentage at 70% just out of interest with Dembele at 93% however it also lists Lucas as having made 24 clearances to Dembeles 12 and 33 interceptions to Dembeles 12. Stats eh

 

We are second but that's down to our attack, not our defence and midfield. We are relying on the brilliance of SAS/Coutinho.