Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Chelsea

DH essay on the way, been a while.

For a start, I definitely hate so many of our players - and I really mean hate. Just wanna get that out the way.

But I also acknowledge that whilst a number of these don't deserve to wear our shirt, there's still enough quality in them to be easily outplaying sides like Brighton, Fulham, Palace, Wolves etc whilst being dominated recently by some of the better teams in the league has been so painful and that obviously lies with the manager for his turgid approach to games and lack of ideas outside of "give the ball to Harry Kane".

Similar to Spurly, I'd have happily accepted substance over style for a couple years if that meant it got us winning a couple of trophies and challenging for the league. Reality is though, we're now further away from winning any major trophy and we've not just sacrificed style but we also have no substance either. So what we're witnessing is utterly horrendous stuff, especially of late where it's on a par or possibly worse than the final year under Poch or prior to when AVB got sacked, it's that ****ing bad.

Realistically, everyone of importance at this club outside of Harry Kane has ****ed up badly over the last few years.

Levy - Thought Jose would be a quick and cheap fix to the painful rebuild that Poch warned him of. It's backfired quite spectacularly. As has been said by others, he's a great businessman, no so much a great football man. Ticket prices (pandemic excluded) continue to rise whilst the football regresses. He's losing the support of those who've been "Levy in" as well as those who were always neutral and I include myself in that, I'm not quite Levy Out but I definitely feel he needs to start getting things right before this club becomes another Arsenal or Newcastle where protests against the owners become a common occurrence. You can't charge £50 for a Big Mac burger for much longer and expect customers to leave positive reviews all the time.

Hitchin - Whilst I thought he, Levy and Jose deserved credit in the summer for the incomings, he comes across as very unenthusiastic about his job, especially the main aspect of going out and finding/ signing the right players. I mean you wouldn't hire a chef who hated food, would you? Ultimately he's highly responsible for getting in the right players and he's failed massively with that.

Players - Far too many have overstayed their welcome. If these were food products with use by dates they'd be mouldy as **** (yes, I've noticed by now I've made a lot of food analogies, I'm a fatty so it's come natural to me, what can I say?) . We're a top six club with a large number of mid-table players (and I'm being extremely kind calling some of them mid-table).

Poch - Got lazy and too loyal to players who were letting him down, a stark contrast to the guy who was ruthless (yet fair) when he first joined. Also took his eye off the ball with youth development, I've said a few times already but we've lost about £80m worth of market value talent over the last couple years, that's a huge loss to a club like us, both financially and from a playing perspective. Despite the fact he knew we needed a rebuild, it's known that he turned down a number of good players who we're now seeing elsewhere do well. Think he was a broken man when sacked and he was sacked for his own good I think too, took a number of losses in big games which must have taken its toll (LC Final, CL Final, close in the league twice, three consecutive domestic semi final losses). Look at Nuno at Wolves and it's quite similar but on a smaller scale, if a manager struggles to get their team over the next hurdle they struggle to remain consistent and often end up regressing.

Jose - Gave two players we should've let go new contracts. Has shown to be far too dependable on Harry Kane just like AVB was with Bale. Tactically there's nothing we're seeing that would resemble a Mourinho masterclass any more, it's often disasterclasses and for the money he's on it's unacceptable. Is not giving enough chances to players that deserve them whilst persists in giving chances to those who absolutely don't deserve them. Over 15 months in the job now and there's no real sign of improvement, at this point in a manager's tenure there should at least be signs of progression, even if minimal, instead we're seeing plenty of signs of regression. Oversaw 9 new signings where the majority have been poor, this will then lead into the next point.

Transfer decisions - We were often a club who done well in the market, we'd utilise our solid scouting system to target the right players. Where we've gone wrong in recent years is Levy/ Hitchin/ Poch/ Jose have said yes to the wrong players over other alternatives or have simply said no to those they shouldn't have. Cases in point:
Dave Sanchez > Harry Maguire.
Serge Aurier > Ricardo Pereira.
Gio Lo Celso > Bruno Fernandes.
Matt Doherty > Timothy Castagne.
No to Youri Tielemans.
No to James Maddison.
No to Caglar Soyuncu.
And let's not forget spectacularly ****ing up the Grealish deal. £3m plus Onomah will never be forgotten. It should be a meme in fact.

So when combining all of the above together, it's resulted in a bit of a clusterfuck at the club and it's hard to be positive at the moment, especially as the one positive will surely begin questioning his future in the summer and potentially look for a way out if someone stumps up the cash. This is all at a time where fans had been under the impression in recent years that the good times were round the corner.

 

We went behind early in both of those matches and reacted by going on the offensive and taking the game to the opposition.
This resulted in them being utterly blown away in both cases.
We're a far better team when we're being aggressive and getting on the ball than we are when we're gifting possession and being passive.

 

Point 10 got me thinking...what is our strongest line up with everyone fit? I'd like to see:

Hugo
Aurier Toby Rodon Reg
Sissoko Hojbjerg
Lo Celso Tanguy Son
Kane

 

For me it would be

GK - Hugo, no brainer
RB - Aurier, but that's more "least bad"
CB - Toby
CB - Rodon
LB - Regi
CM - Hojbjerg
CM - Ndombele or Sissoko, depending on the opposition
RW - Bergwijn, although this is another "least bad"
AM - Lo Celso or Ndombele, depending on the opposition
LW - Son, no brainer
FW - Kane, no brainer

Not exactly a glowing summary of our right flank there...

 

Aurier, Toby, Sissoko aren’t up to the level and need replaced asap.

Rodon has potential but so far shouldn’t be relied on as he’s still got a lot of mistakes in him.

Lo Celso is a sick note.

Tanguy never looks properly fit.

Reguilon will probably be going back to Madrid this summer or next summer.

Basically it’s Hugo, Hojbjerg, Kane and Son and that’s the positives at the moment.

 

I think 2 things here.

Firstly that it’s incredibly frustrating that we only ever seem to attack with numbers and try and dominate possession and apply pressure in the last 15 minutes of a game. When we do we’re capable of being dynamic and creating chances. Though I think it’s hampered by...

2- There seems to be no plan, no structure on how we attack and build chances when we have the ball. I see no patterns of movement, no idea to attack down the flanks or create space in the middle or exploit the half spaces. There’s no movement, Tanguy is playing out of position so can’t drop for the ball, and he’s the only fit progressive player we have...it’s a mess. Maybe Dele was right - all we do is defend and knock it long.

I totally see the case for sitting in and breaking on teams in some cases and in games like the City one it’s been effective. But the majority of games we play we should be adjusting the lineups to dominate play and featuring players who will show for the ball and try and progress it.

 

I completely get where you’re coming from and I know there’s other fans who think the same.
One thing I’ve seen time and time again is with regards to the squad, and “same players as poch had” who have seen their day.
However, in the summer we signed a number of players and the general consensus (other than missing out on a CB) was that we’d done some decent business and improved in areas where we were weak.
By default, this had made the squad stronger, as some of the ones that have been around for a long time now find themselves on the bench more frequently. - Thank god.

Therefore doesn’t it become harder to blame the “same” players, when in fact there’s new additions who were better than we had, and 1 or 2 that have also upped their game now there’s competition for places?

For me, Some of these players are being utilised incorrectly and/or being stifled by Jose. - look at Doherty as an example. He’s no where near the player he was at wolves. Goals and assists galore have well and truly dried up, and he doesn’t look like he knows how to play football anymore. Surely this has to come down to the manager?

I just can’t see any reason to continue with Jose’s reign. This sort of management isn’t the first time we’re seen it from him, and it’s so similar to his days at United.

I want to win trophies as much as the next fan, but can you see it happening now? Playing like this? We’ve had the easiest run to get to the LC final, which personally I think isn’t a true reflection of what’s really happening. Something has fundamentally changed within the dressing room, and IMO giving him more time is only going to make things worse in the long run.

 

It's hard to define our best XI any more for me because too many just aren't good enough. Picking who's better out of Aurier and Doherty or Dier/ Toby/ Sanchez or Bale/ Lamela/ Lucas/ Bergwijn or a CAM who can actually dictate play and stat pad with some assists/ goals is just painful.

Our 'best' XI basically consists of these players, in which the following gaps will be filled by ones who'd constantly let us down.

Hugo
RB, CB, CB, Reguilon
Hojbjerg, Ndombele
RW, CAM, Son
Kane

I'm fully on the Joey Rodon train but I also appreciate he's of the quality (as of right now) of a third choice CB, similar with Tanganga, both in time have the potential to be a lot better. Hugo will need replacing in the coming future, he's still just about of the level of a solid GK though, so we can press ahead with immediate bigger concerns but summer 2022 I think a new number one keeper will be needed.

 

Still don't get the obsession with Hojbjerg. Replay the last three matches. He is often the player who isn't in the right place. When Sissoko was near Mason Mount, Mount barely got a kick. When Hojbjerg tried to pick him up, Mount had no problem running past him and setting up the attack.

 

I pointed this out after the Brighton game and was watching him very closely last night. He was slightly better in terms of positional discipline but that was probably more down to the fact that he didn't cross the halfway line for the first 45 mins of the game.

He is relatively young though and I believe he has the raw talent and certainly the desire to improve with time. All he needs is decent coaching, which he currently isn't getting.

 

There's on simple reason: he actually makes himself available for passes out of the back so that (in theory...) we can get the ball moving

In comparison, here's a sequence from last night of Sissoko basically managing to hide behind one Chelsea player or another rather than make himself available for the pass

It's hardly unique, either, considering the pass maps show a pattern of the CBs never passing to Sissoko, with their out ball being either Hojbjerg or the nearest FB

Admittedly a question does need to be asked if this is a tactical decision, as a similar thing happens when Winks, Ndombele and Lo Celso play in the same position in various games - especially as Winks certainly was dropping back to receive passes during the dark days of the Winkssoko pivot - but this is why I say that Hojbjerg is actually the upgrade on Sissoko that we need, the issue being that we lack the DM next to him to have some semblance of control in midfield

 

No, it doesn't, but it shows that you don't need to have the best players in the world to win a cup. You need good man-management, a footballing style and a strategy that everyone has the buy-in to, throughout all layers of the club. Elements of fortune are required as well in terms of opposition etc. But the most important aspect required for a manager to succeed is man-management. Mourinho lacks in this department massively and that is why he will not be at Spurs for the long-term.

Also, and I realise this is easy for me to say, but football seriously isn't all about winning trophies anyway. We've won 4 FA Cups in the last 7 years, but that didn't stop fans being pissed off with the lack of competitiveness, disjointed style of play, wasted investment and poor decisions from the club hierarchy. If anything, those cup wins masked the underlying issues at the club. Now look what's happened. Fans are still frustrated and our chickens came home to roost.

Obviously, I'm not saying that you shouldn't want your team to win - we all want what's best for our clubs - but don't be fooled into thinking that winning a League Cup or FA Cup will be the springboard for future prizes that you think it might. It seldom works that way unless you're right at the top of the food chain.

At the end of the day, there are many teams who have a comparative advantage in the league, which is why it's so difficult to win. Likewise in the Champions League. Domestic cup draws, as I mentioned, are a lottery in terms of calibre of opponent, fixture congestion, rotation etc.

95% of clubs don't end up winning anything each season, and that's not because they're 'losers' or 'don't want to', it's because it's so bloody hard when they're competing with a host of other clubs that have got more spending power + resources than they do.

If you want to win the bigger stuff, you need a perfect storm of nearly everything going in your favour - like Atletico Madrid in La Liga currently. Both Barca and Real are in turmoil, suffering financial problems, players underperforming etc, whereas they were fortunate enough to sign a deadly striker in Suarez for peanuts and haven't suffered many injuries throughout the year. But even with Atletico Madrid, as well as they've performend, they face far less competition for the top spots than we have in England.

I just think it's reductive to label players/teams 'losers' for not winning trophies, especially as football is more than just pots of silver.

 

1. I do not refer to spurs fans on here as plastics... no idea where you got that from.
I have referred to Levy pricing out long standing fans in the hope of appealing to tourists and plastics. THAT is very different to what you have written.

2. I have stated again and again that I would LOVE us to win a trophy...any trophy...I do not think of any as "mickey mouse" or "pointless".
Both Pochettino and Redknapp pissed me off when they played weakened teams in the league Cup...so me slating JM for doing that and costing us v Norwich last season was consistent on my part.

3. I have been one of the most critical posters on here of players.
I said immediately in 2017 (after THAT interview) that Spurs should tell Rose to find a new club and **** off or leave him to rot in the reserves.
I have slated Dele for his disgraceful behaviours and crop performances and I have said several times that JM has done the right thing with them imo.
When Dier and Toby tarted themselves around other clubs I said they should **** off and not be picked.
And I was the git that labled Sissoko and Aurier the FFS twins.
I also said we should have refused to pick Eriksen when he pissed us around.

4. I criticised Pochettino for his mishandling of the above and while I said he should have been given the rest of that season I did get why he was sacked.

5. I have never supported pointless sideways passing...it is boring...that was the reason I turned on AVB.

6. I accepted the defensive and counter attacking football under JM but the problem is that there are way too many games where we just don't bother attacking.. which is why I complain about us.

7. Under Ramos, most said the team was ****e...yet in the same amount of time that JM has had (15 months) with far worse players Redknapp shipped players out, got players in and got us playing dynamic entertaining football that got us a top 4 finish.

I love being a spur. All of us have our personal stories about why it is important to us. It has got me through some horrible times.
Right now I can not bare to watch us cos we are turgid and boring.
That is why I want him gone.

For me, being a spurs fan is about going to games, chatting to my daughters about it, chatting to mates like you on here or in person...and enjoying the excitement...and there is no excitement whatsoever...so imho he needs to go and Levy should have NO say in the next appointment as 3 good appointments out of 10 is appalling

 

True I wasn't advocating Van Gaal just making the point about him turning us down, The clue was my use of the term 'ilk'

 

I've always thought there were four types of fans. The couch potatos,the fans who only watch their own team,the fans who live in the south but support,literally,team(s) in the north or nuts like me who will watch other clubs wherever they are just to enjoy the game (except Arsenal,probably!). Of course,I'm of that age and country where I can't do that anymore.But I must admit to enjoying MLS on the telly.

 

Just on the subject of plastics, I was at one of our cup games last season and I overheard someone making a comment about this.
It was directed at one of our Korean fans, who was there with his missus, his selfie-stick, his Son shirt and a bag of merchandise.
I've seen the supposed plastic at at least 4 other matches. Never seen the other bloke, though.

I'm not going to knock people who don't regularly go to games, for a wide variety of reasons, including pricing, distance and time factors.
I'm also not going to knock someone who travels half-way around the world to watch Spurs.

 

Hojbjerg is full of talent and determination and yes you can criticise some of what he does but IMO it would be unfair in this current team to do so because the team method is suspect and that makes all the players look way below their best. I am still convinced we have a very talented squad we are just not using 80% of it.

 

Levy should stick to running the financial aspect of the club, which he's clearly very good at.
We need an overall vision for the footballing side of things, though.
Hiring managers with a consistent style of play and a clear route from the academy to the first team is a necessity.

 

Hes a massive improvement on what Spurs had before. He’s headless and lacks discipline in his game but with a few tweaks he can be a vital part of the midfield. This is where Jose should be thriving but for some reason he isn’t.