Off Topic Ukraine

https://www.stimson.org/2022/the-risks-of-u-s-military-assistance-to-ukraine/
A long read Toby but the part entitled ''Diversions'' covers it.

 

Read it all. Where does it say that 'many heavy weapons' are sold on the black market? Especially since the war began?

Ukraine has a long-term problem with corruption, mostly because it was a puppet state of Russia until they kicked out their pro-Russian leaders. The country has made huge strides since, and will soon be a member of the EU.

 

This is from a Russian speaking young lady now in England.

"My parents could not leave Donbas because of elderly relatives. They have been suffering in limbo for over 8 years now. They have had to pretend everything is ok to survive. Since February 24th her father went outside to the street ONCE - to a dentist"
"Donetsk has been a ghost city since 2014. Most normal people have left and it has been fully occupied by the Russian zombies. People who stayed are terrified to say a thing and pretend all is fine. No credit cards are operating. Only Russian rubles. Destruction. Wild West. 90s"
"She says people know of their strong Ukrainian position, but the people who know would never tell this to the Russian occupiers. Thousands of Ukrainian people are living hostage in the dead zone of Russian horror, unable to escape, unable to make a sound"
"They've been waiting for 8 years now. They will wait for few more months. I know we will be free. As soon as it happens I will go back home"
"People of Donbas deserve to be free!"

 

It's all there Toby if you choose to read it properly !

 

Where??? Do you know what heavy arms are? Where does it say that many of them are currently sold on the black market?

 

Their lives don't matter because apparently some Russians live there.

 

It says that the Ukraine has become a central source of weapons finding their way onto the illicit black market and that weapons from there have turned up in places as remote as Afghanistan and Sierra Leone. It also quotes the numbers of weapons which have gone missing from their military stockpiles together with the fact that they do not have the infrastructure to effectively use the numbers of weapons coming in and often don't now what to do with them - I would have thought that was enough !

 

So there is no evidence of 'many heavy weapons' being put on the black market? Especially since the war started. We're slowly getting there...

I ignored the conspiracy stuff about Zelenskyy in the rest of your post. Your pro-Putin stance revolts me, no point in discussing this further.

If you do come back with some evidence about 'many heavy weapons' being sold on the black market then please feel free to post it

 

Putin is a war criminal ...does not deserve respect..........
I think Regime change is the best option in Russia..... but is it possible? He surrounds himself with cronies he has allowed to become rich and who will not cross him.....we know what happens if you do.......

 

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I do not feel compelled to provide evidence Toby. You say that you have asked many times for this - actually you have demanded it once in an abusive PM coupled with an accusation about posting on the QPR forum - as if I am required to ask your permission for my online activities on a forum which i have often used and on which I have some friends. Nobody objected to my posting there or to the post itself yet you decided to fly in with all guns blazing with an abusive and accusative PM. My mistake was in replying to it - in short I don't feel either compelled or under obligation to continue this dialogue. The actual link I provided is still there and if others want to read it they can decide whether I have enough evidence based on that - I can provide more but bearing in mind your inability to read anything which conflicts with your own narrow viewpoint there is no point.

 

In other debates you have tended to take a NOT- pro West view... and yet we are in a violent conflict in which every day innocent people are dying as a result of Putin's actions. It is hard that you seek to criticize Zelensky and the UKrainian nation....as a seeming justification for Putin's actions.

I see no good in Putin's behaviour... it really belongs to another era

 

Firstly this reply has very little to do with what I wrote to Toby and secondly I have not justified Putin's actions, thirdly I have criticized Zelenskiy but not the Ukrainian nation as such.

 

You made a claim. I asked for evidence of a claim, as I know it's false. You failed to provide any evidence and accused me of not reading properly.

The QPR thing was you smearing Ukraine whilst chatting to someone I'd consider pretty far right, I was wondering why you didn't post your views on here.

My inability to read? Who's being abusive now. You don't even understand the article you linked to.

 

Funny how nobody on the QPR forum thought that I was smearing Ukraine Toby - only you did ! You actually referred to him in the PM as being a right wing twat, I won't name him here because it wouldn't be appropriate but I would classify him as probably middle right conservative - at any rate I have never found him abusive, and have generally found him to be open to debate. Nor do I have to justify my posting there to you ! Their forum has many more users than ours and a much wider cross section of opinions, and I do not only post on political threads there. As I said I'll leave it to others to decide whether the linked article was relevant or not. You say I smeared the Ukraine ? The post which I replied to asked why countries like Germany are not paying out more for the Ukraine - I answered with the justification that Germany was concentrating more on humanitarian help than the UK - nearly 5,000 daily at Berlins central station all of whom have to be processed , housed, and medically screened (the latter of these is necessary with all incoming refugees and is particularly the case from Ukraine because their vaccination rate was so low and because they have a high rate of Tuberculosis there) - you immediately jumped in and claimed that i referred to the Ukrainians as 'diseased'. If you are prepared to twist my words in this case then you will do it in others and so I have no further interest in debating with you.

 

Along with the weapons lie and your Sudetenland solution to the current war.

You never discuss Russian atrocities or blame them for this war. Everything is always anti-Ukraine, you constantly justify Putin's landgrab and mass murder of Ukrainians, then wonder why you're picked up on it.

Try looking into what's actually happening there.

 

If you had read all my posts you would know that I do not justify the invasion or mass murder - I have stated this several times - if you only choose to read everything with your own tinted glasses then that is your problem ! The important difference in my opinions is that I am looking for solutions and not just along the lines of winning/losing. But you will go on interpreting all my texts the way you want to interpret them so what's the point - I have better things to do.

 

Of course you haven't been defending Russia's actions. The long ranting paragraphs criticising Ukraine along with blaming NATO for Putin's actions are just a coincidence.

 

I have not gone further than to state that the Eastwards expansion of Nato (ie. American interests because they are one and the same) against all promises to Russia ,has been a contributary factor in helping to bring us to the crisis we have now - that is a long way from absolving Putin of all guilt. But again you will read what you want to read.

 

And I wonder why Ukraine and the other Baltic/Scandinavian countries want to join NATO? Would it maybe because they're otherwise at threat from being invaded by Russia?

Would you like Russia to 'liberate' Germany in the same way? You mentioned there are lots of Russian speakers there, are they represented in Parliament?