What is entertainment?

Discussion in 'Norwich City' started by tipsycanary, Jan 3, 2014.

  1. carrabuh

    carrabuh Well-Known Member

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    anti-intelligent is not what I said, I used the term concentration for the systems to work.

    Your initial implication was Hughton was giving the players the go ahead to use their intelligence, I'm saying the system is too rigid for that to happen with any expected success. Everything points to structure, not to free thinking, movement etc.
     
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  2. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    My point is simply that "playing system X intelligently" is not a contradiction, whatever "X" stands for -- 4:4:2, 4:2:3:1, 4:5:1, 4:3:3, 3:5:2 or whatever. To repeat what I actually said in my initial post, what I see watching our games is perfectly good systems and game plans being executed without intelligence. Concentration (in the ordinary understanding of the word) is a different matter. All systems require concentration if they are to be played successfully, and letting your concentration lapse is not an intelligent thing to do. <ok>
     
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  3. robbieBB

    robbieBB Well-Known Member

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    As Tipsy points out there is a difference between attempting a more difficult pass and playing a risky pass. It's crucial where and when the pass is attempted. Teams which know how to minimise risk are able to play more difficult passes confident that if the pass doesn't come off nothing detrimental is likely to ensue. These teams are made up of players who understand the game, understand the system they play (all of which presupposes intelligence) and play it intelligently. <ok>
     
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  4. carrabuh

    carrabuh Well-Known Member

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    I differ from yourself, I see rigid systems being played which do not allow the players to think and work out situations and interact with other players regardless of position. Its rehersal and concentration, an ability to do as your told and continue to carry out what your told.

    Theres no way the players have the freedom to pick and choose their moments because they all stick to where they are told. The central midfielders shoot from distance, they stay in the middle and outside of the area.

    The players under Lambert moved and interchanged and thought and expressed themselves, thats why people were entertained. They were allowed to and given the confidence to do so.

    I have little doubt our players have it absolutely drilled into them there set roles.
     
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  5. BillyNCFC

    BillyNCFC Well-Known Member

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    Yep totally agree
     
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  6. Home on the range canary

    Home on the range canary Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure they have set roles, but you only need to watch briefly to see that many of our players are not picking the "intelligent/creative pass" the option is often there, but they don't see it. When the better option is played it has led to half decent positions, until yet again the wrong choice is made. In my view the players after 5-7 games were starting to see the better option. We have players snodgrass?redmond/johnson, who seldom pick a creative pass, not because they are drilled but because they are either greedy, developing or simply lack the ability.
     
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  7. tipsycanary

    tipsycanary Well-Known Member

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    In an ideal world you want a strong structure, from which you can accommodate creative outlets. More disciplined when defending and more fluid when attacking, I imagine players must take some responsibility for the poor transition from defensive structure to attacking as does CH. Playing with a DM is a sensible option as it gives cover for mistakes and breaks up play and you want a disciplined back line when defending, however I agree when we attack we often dont transfer into a more attacking set up, with players maintaining their defensive positions. We need to get more players in support of our wingers (if we play with them) so they have option of one twos and not just a long cross. Similarly the wide players must come inside to play short passes with CM to add variation and make space for others. In very simplistic terms you want to play a disciplined and basic formation when defending, playing in straight lines across the pitch and keeping narrow. When attacking you need to break from this structure to more complex shapes, playing between the lines making triangles to play between and create an opening. That sounds like a kids maths book but I hope you understand what I mean.

    I still find good defending exciting in a way, or at least interesting but I prefer when teams defend from the front, which in some ways is an attacking way of playing without the ball.
     
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  8. canary-dave

    canary-dave Well-Known Member

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    I see an awful lot of rigidity in your refusal to see any point of view that doesn't tally with yours. Does that make you the same sort of fan as your description of CH as manager? Clueless was it?
     
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  9. tipsycanary

    tipsycanary Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong he can talk some rubbish but its no bad thing if he sticks to what he thinks, its his opinion and if he doesnt want to consider others opinions as valid then fair enough. At least he tries to explain his opinion. No problem on this occasion <ok>
     
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  10. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    As one who doesn't believe in the 'rigid system' theory, it's a perception like any other. Carrabuh's 'rigid system' can be seen as a 'professional discipline' by another observer. Football is a flowing game where performances are influenced by confidence, and regular play, both of which have been difficult to come by with the run of injuries City have had. I don't believe in many of the Lambert myths that are being propagated these days. People remember the good times much more than the bad. It was interesting to listen to Darren Eadie talking today about the difference between the PL in the 90s and the situation today. It's a totally different game now than it was then.
     
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  11. carrabuh

    carrabuh Well-Known Member

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    I can see a persons point of view Dave, I just haven't had anyone come up with a cogent argument that says I'm wrong.

    The reason being is that I'm not.

    You can have a go though.
     
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  12. RiverEndRick

    RiverEndRick Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps we need an arrogant manager then. One who knows he's right and everybody else is wrong.
     
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  13. tipsycanary

    tipsycanary Well-Known Member

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    Is that down to the system though or just the way a system is implemented? Surely a system is just a formation? These can be used in very different ways, a 4-5-1 can be very defensive or quite attacking depending on how you use it.
     
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  14. Canary Rob

    Canary Rob Well-Known Member

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    In defeence of Johnson (I know it sounds bizarre), but I actually think he is very good at spotting a run, he often attempts through balls or carefully placed over the top. I think he attempts them more often than any other CM we have. Perhaps he's just way more confident (certainly matches his shooting) but simply doesn't ppull it off and people remember the ball given away rather than the good choice.

    That's not to say it's a good thing - after all, we lose the ball more often than not - but Johnson is often the player of the most dynamic balll when things are going well a
     
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  15. carrabuh

    carrabuh Well-Known Member

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    I don't see system as just formation, it encompasses everything. Responsibility, movement, passing style, intention.

    I like 4-5-1 when its played right, not the all too literal 4-5-1 that Hughton plays.
     
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  16. tipsycanary

    tipsycanary Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, personally I'd see it as the framework, inside where the rest of the play takes place but thats neither here nor there really. I agree nothing wrong with 4-5-1 just the way it is played. In simple terms we are too lateral when we play it which can make us easy to mark, relying on individuals to beat players rather then pass round them as a team. The wingers seem to get a huge amount of flak on here but they get so little support their options are very limited. How often do one of the wingers receive the ball with no team mate within 20 yards?
     
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  17. Cromercanary

    Cromercanary Well-Known Member
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    And at whose door should the blame be laid for this, I wonder :emoticon-0112-wonde
     
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  18. tipsycanary

    tipsycanary Well-Known Member

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    Both players and coach if you are asking
     
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  19. carrabuh

    carrabuh Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. As long as he agrees with me.
     
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  20. carrabuh

    carrabuh Well-Known Member

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    They are only doing what they are told and have rehersed in training.

    Do you not find it strange the immediacy on Hughtons arrival that we started to play like this.

    The central midfield rarely passes to the forwards, its not coincidental because the forwards are told to stay where they are to await the cross.

    Hughton yesterday made the point that we put in plenty of crosses, its a point he often makes, long crosses equate to rigid structure because you don't need the position interchange for the passes to interact with each other.

    Don't get me wrong, some games there is less of this going on but its certainly a major feature since he arrived.
     
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