Winter News

Discussion in 'Plymouth' started by Plymborn, Dec 2, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Plymborn

    Plymborn Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    7,896
    Likes Received:
    48
    So who is replacing Jervis ?.....only 15 minutes to go.
     
    #201
  2. Plymborn

    Plymborn Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    7,896
    Likes Received:
    48

    15.5 hr day....you need to be in a trade union mate.
     
    #202
  3. lyndhurstgreen

    lyndhurstgreen Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    11
    bit like being in the RN-except without the sun and alcohol.
     
    #203
  4. lyndhurstgreen

    lyndhurstgreen Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    11
    Fair to say it has been a frustrating couple of days. At least we have bought in some quality in Church, Vyner and Matthews. Kusu Moses Makasi is highly recommended but will need to prove himself at this level. Not at all disappointed with the departures except perhaps jake- and that is more for personal reasons than from a football perspective. Whatever conspiracy theories come out, the reality is that the players hold all the cards and clubs are pretty powerless really . The Club, especially DA, fworked non stop trying to get things sorted and just when you think we have got something in the pipeline the player has a change of mind. A lot of the deals are also contingent on other deals so when the chain breaks you are stuffed.

    I think we have an excellent squad for the rest of the season, perhaps a little thin in places, but if they stay fit it should be pretty entertaining stuff. There are also always a few 'unemployed' players kicking around that might be worth looking at.
     
    #204
  5. sensiblegreeny

    sensiblegreeny Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,539
    Likes Received:
    871
    Think it has been equally frustrating for the supporters as well if truth be told. I have to agree that the above list of incoming is all good allowing as you say for Makasi proving to be a winner as well. I'm not altogether enamoured with the outgoing list and to be honest would have hoped for a couple more coming in. We hopefully have had our bad time with injuries and stuff and won't be too troubled by that again this season. If we are then we could be in a spot of bother but time will tell. We are where we are and there isn't much we can do about it now.

    Can we still sign out of club players? I had thought this was it and nobody could get signed anymore this season now apart from an emergency.
     
    #205
  6. lyndhurstgreen

    lyndhurstgreen Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    11
    Genuinely 'unemployed' players can still be signed until mid march- that is exactly how we picked Toumes up outside the window. In a perfect world we might have liked one or two more in, but, as I keep saying, I am not sure where the team need strengthening at this stage. so you either bring someone in to sit on the bench or try and bring a 'starter' in and drop someone who has done well. If we do get injuries then we have some good youngsters to step up. Appreciate it is frustrating for the fans, but before the window I think everyone was pretty much content with the starting 11 and those 11 have been preserved. What no one seems to want to mention is that we have refused to sell one or two key players,
     
    #206
  7. sensiblegreeny

    sensiblegreeny Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,539
    Likes Received:
    871
    I accept the non sale part of that lyndie. Think there might have been a riot though had they gone and we hadn't signed somebody huge to replace. Also agree most of people I know were happy with starting 11 and results prior to the window. The trouble with these windows is they create upset and nervous reactions with supporters and probably players alike. We are always fearful that our top players will get poached and then as fearful we don't sign anyone when others are.

    Time will tell though. Some of the teams who have gone gung ho on signing players will find their signings aren't gelling or what they thought they were and others will get an injury early doors and be out for the season therefore being a waste of ink. Others will find their squad to be more effective even without wholesale signings of new faces. Which one we will be is anyones guess. Had we not had our good run of results in the second quarter of the season then I think there would be a lot of very squeaky bottoms about. As it is safety isn't so far away as it might have been if things go a bit south.
     
    #207
  8. notDistantGreen

    notDistantGreen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,640
    Likes Received:
    33
    I understand the difficulties as far as anyone can from outside but it's still been a bit underwhelming.

    Would we have paid a fee for the CB from Liverpool if we'd been sure the £125K was coming in from the sale of Jake Jervis? You are excused from answering Lyndhurst!
     
    #208
  9. Plymborn

    Plymborn Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    7,896
    Likes Received:
    48
    That was an exhausting January window....and all I had to do was sit behind my keyboard and watch.

    I feel a little flat in hindsight....I was expecting at least one nailed on first choice player to strengthen the team....I was hoping for someone to fully replace Diagouraga's leaving, not just a young player just starting his senior career.

    I'm very disappointed that Jake Jervis felt he wasn't really in the managers favour anymore and has moved on to where he will feel valued, we'll miss his wing play and the goals he has scored in the two and a half years he was here. Injuries to Carey or Lameiras would mean a genuine winger like Jervis would come into his own again......Jake averaged a goal in every four matches....easily are second most prolific goal scorer....why didn't we fight to keep him ?

    Remi Matthews we had lined up in late December...first as an emergency loan for the last game of December then to become a loan signing for the rest of the season when January started.

    Zak Vyner and Moses Makasi are here until the end of the season on loan....unknown ability at this level....we hope that they both settle in and prove their value to the team....crossed fingers at the moment that they will be successful.

    Simon Church I'm not sure about...hardly any game time in the last eighteen months...because of injuries and being out of favour with Scunthorpe who remember are only Div 1 level. He has come to us as an out of contract player...If he plays well and stays fit a bonus...but if things go well for him I doubt if he will be here next season....shades of Diagouraga....just using us for their own ends.

    Other than Jervis...we have managed to ship out some mediocre players....Gregg Wylde fast but one dimensional and why Adams brought him back is a mystery...other than he was cheap and free after a disastrous year at Millwall.
    Nadir Ciftci...would have been a great scoop if he had worked....but he didn't...Celtic don't no what to do with him and loaned him out again quickly....I assume his contract is to expensive just to pay off.
    Nathan Blissett was another gamble...we actually paid money for him....he looks the part on the pitch...but the trouble starts when the referee blows the whistle to start the game.
    Jacub Sokolik has been release by mutual agreement....gives him the chance as a free agent to find another club.....when he first came (Div2) he did quite well.....but in Div 1 he couldn't produce the goods and was well out of favour....best result for everyone.

    I thought Derek Adams would have benefitted from Jake Jervis's supposed £125,000 fee ?....and would have tempted someone in with a good deal.....we'll never know will we....did he try or was it too late in the evening to fix something up.

    On the whole I feel we have not strengthened the team, in fact I feel that if we get important players injured we will struggle to perform....I think if we can maintain mid-table until May and that is the best we can expect.

    Looking to the future I feel that we have just about reached the level that we can achieve under James Brent's tenure....upper Div 1 will be our ceiling.....why do I say that.....we have been told that on average Championship clubs lose £10 million a year....so balancing the books and staying in the black is not really possible.
    Mr Brent has been honest with us that that will be the business model that will continue under his ownership. We will not be paying big wages, we will not be spending on transfers to bring in star players necessary to achieve promotion from this division....and obviously we will not be attracting the players necessary to hold their own in the Championship.....they will see that we're a cosy club without aspirations to go for promotion....we'll not attract players who want to reach the big time....we might attract players on the way down and looking for a contract to get them nearer their retirement.

    What's the answer.... James Brent is probably very aware to the facts and has said in the past that he would sell if someone came along with the right credentials to take PAFC to the promised land....which is probably no better than the Championship....but we need to keep dreaming....just look at little Bournemouth with a crappy small ground...riding high in the top half of the Premiership....what was their last result....let me think...oh yea....Chelsea...0-3...Bournemouth....amazing stuff.

    PS...how do we achieve Premiership football under the likes of James Brent....churn out £10 million players to sell on regularly.....need a good academy and not let our youngsters go for only a book of green shield stamps.

    Oh yes there is still one hope....there will be quite a few free agents floating about after the window....remember that's how we got Diagouraga......and with the Jervis money we might be able to tempt a good player in.
     
    #209
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  10. notDistantGreen

    notDistantGreen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,640
    Likes Received:
    33
    Simple answer on the Championship issue is that you have to be better than the rest on less money.

    My feeling is that Adams can do that but how long it can be sustained is a different matter.

    Bluntly, the chances of someone buying PAFC who can shovel in £ millions per annum are nil so we can forget that option even if was desirable.
     
    #210

  11. lyndhurstgreen

    lyndhurstgreen Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,449
    Likes Received:
    11
    I will answer this way.....if there is player available then it is very much down to the football management team to decide whether that player is worth the asking price and whether he has the budget to buy him. If the selling club's valuation is significantly more than the buying club's opinion of the player's worth, then some times it is a case of saying 'he is good , but not that good'. Negotiations happen but if you cant reach a compromise that both parties are content with, then it is often a no deal. The problem that football has in general is that some clubs have pots of spare cash rolling around, so they are willing to pay over the odds which leads to player price inflation. So, in a number of ways, your question becomes irrelevant -if the player is priced at a higher price than a club wants to pay (not a price they can/cant afford) then it might not be worth pursuing. Not saying this happened in this case , but it often does.
     
    #211
  12. notDistantGreen

    notDistantGreen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,640
    Likes Received:
    33
    Understood.

    Within what's going to be a squad of modest size compared to those in the bigger leagues, I'd rather the club paid top dollar (relatively speaking) for those with successful experience than unfulfilled potential. David Fox is a case in point - 250+ league games including quite a few at a higher level. Diagouraga would have been another one but there you go.

    I'll mention again the Moneyball film about the Oakland Athletic baseball team, who propelled themselves to unprecedented success (for them) by by buying and selling players according to sabermetric evaluation. If you haven't seen it, do so, it's a good yarn as well as thought provoking!
     
    #212
  13. sensiblegreeny

    sensiblegreeny Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,539
    Likes Received:
    871
    Plym I'm not sure about some of your analysis of outgoing players in your last post. Wylde is fair comment. Ciftci "could have been a coup" applies to every single player who comes here or anywhere else. Players either work out or don't and there is no could or couldn't about it. Blissett wasn't that bad a signing either. I am not sure where you get the "when the ref blew the whistle" bit from. He was a different type of player than the norm we put out and always gave a lot of effort in games. It didn't pan out in games he played but the truth is at that time not many players were working out. Adams got Toumi, changed the format a bit and the upsurge in results commenced. Blissett then fell out of favour. Sokolik wasn't particularly given much of a run out in league one to form an opinion . He like Blissett also played in the bad spell where all of the team were under performing.

    I think we all know that Brent isn't ever going to change so anyone who thinks cash will get splashed at anytime either sooner or later is deluded. The debate about whether cash exists or doesn't is one none of us, except possibly lyndie although I doubt he does either, will ever know. That part is therefore only down to gut feeling or guessing. I do understand that there is a million and one things to take money out of a football club that a lot of us wouldn't even think of. My opinion however is there should be some cash about even if it doesn't run into hundreds of thousands. We are where we are and the choice I have as with many others is that I either accept Brent is owner and has his way of doing things or I bugger off and do something else on a Saturday afternoon. As I like my Saturdays then that sort of takes the choice away. Thing is though, I'm not interested in other clubs and what they do or don't do. I'm concerned with Argyle and only them. Whilst we may not have anyone waiting to splash a fortune on us I do think there are one or two out there who might take a punt who would be prepared to splash some modest cash in our direction. I emphasis modest as I would not want to go down old routes again. You are right Plym in that Brent will never take us to the Championship. If Adams did get us there by some fluke of the imagination then we would last about one season only and be back in league one as fast as we got out of it. Brent would have a severe case of nose bleed.
     
    #213
  14. notDistantGreen

    notDistantGreen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,640
    Likes Received:
    33
    If you read what Lyndy said it's not that there isn't (some) money available but that the club won't pay more than it thinks a player is worth. Now if we consistently fail to get the players we need, then you have to look again at how you are doing the valuing but the principle has to be the right one. January is a notoriously bad time to do business of course....
     
    #214
  15. Plymborn

    Plymborn Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    7,896
    Likes Received:
    48
    I bow to your superior knowledge of seeing these players regularly sensible.....it is difficult from a distance to come to an opinion over any player by just seeing them very rarely......Blissett I saw at Wimbledon this season.....he came on late as Adams was winding down the clock at 1-0....he just looked like a clockwork toy with a damaged spring moving in all directions at the same time...but never where the ball was...maybe that was his job.
    Ciftci came with a £million plus price tag....really based on what he had done before Celtic bought him....they must of wondered what they had bought after a while.

    I'm trying to visualize what would happen if all our dominos fell into line and we got promoted...not possibly this season but next.....how unearth could Adams put a Championship team together with the budget that James Brent could afford to give him.
    Unless our U21 players turned into half a dozen gold nuggets and we held on to them for a change.....I also wonder how Derek Adams can say that Fletcher benefitted from his short time at Torquay....playing twice....personally I would have thought he would have come back depressed playing for a relegation bound National League team heading for the National League South.
     
    #215
  16. sensiblegreeny

    sensiblegreeny Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,539
    Likes Received:
    871
    With Fletcher it could be he meant that he had seen how it was at that level and he learned he doesn't want that and will knuckle down and try a lot harder. Who knows.

    Player worth is all about opinion plym. If we didn't have differing ones then we would have nothing to talk about. Ciftci was a failure because of himself for me. He never looked into it.
     
    #216
  17. sensiblegreeny

    sensiblegreeny Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,539
    Likes Received:
    871
    I'm going to turn into plym for a minute.................god that was painful.

    I was reading a thread on pasoti about our run in compared to a number of other teams. The thread originator seemed to think that we might have a much harder run in than anyone else having to play the majority of our games left against teams higher than us. The almost doom prognosis was that we could get sucked into the relegation mire again. We aren't safe or even remotely contenders for the play off positions. And that was from an Argyle supporter. I do despair sometimes at Janners and their attitude to life and the Universe.

    When you look at the games we have left they do on paper look to be quite difficult. But, how many times has the form book been written off as worthless previously this season. I don't care where a team currently sits in the league. There is no such thing as a game that anyone of the teams can't win. There may be some unlikely ones but runs of form have often been scuppered by the team at the bottom playing the team at the top. If it were that predictable then we would all have maximum points in the prediction league and the competition would be pointless. We all know how hard that one is. I have never gone through a list of games and thought or said we will win that one, draw that one and lose another. There is nothing that can be taken for granted ever. I just wish people wouldn't do this. What they are doing in reality is hedging their disappointment early. If I think we can't do it then I can't be disappointed in the end sort of thing. It's a bit like saying it's too early to get another promotion. What does that actually mean. If it were a possibility at the end of the season would we be hoping it didn't happen? Yeh right, if you believe that you will believe anything.
     
    #217
  18. Plymborn

    Plymborn Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    7,896
    Likes Received:
    48
    I also read that thread.....but it's swings and roundabouts isn't it.....you win two or three games on the trot and you move up the league and the whole scenario changes.
    You then have more teams below you and the odds have changed again, and some of those higher teams are now below you, and you find that the majority of games you have to play are with teams below you......then you lose two or three games on the trot and hey ho it's all changed again....so I didn't get involved....but sensible did and so I didn't then turn into a sensible I ignored it.....nah na.... nah na...na....or something like that.
     
    #218
  19. Plymborn

    Plymborn Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    7,896
    Likes Received:
    48
    I see Bradford have sacked Stuart McCall....after 6 consecutive defeats....they have dropped down to the last play-off spot ...sixth.
     
    #219
  20. sensiblegreeny

    sensiblegreeny Well-Known Member
    Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    May 23, 2011
    Messages:
    9,539
    Likes Received:
    871
    Managers falling like tenpins. I never understand why clubs choose now to do this. They have just had a transfer window and he has spent a load of cash on his choices and now they bin him and he isn't going to work with any of them. In the words of BC.............it's daft I call it.
     
    #220
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page