Off Topic WW3 How Close?

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Russia launched the “most massive attack” on the city overnight Saturday with Iranian-made Shahed drones, said Serhii Popko, a senior Kyiv military official. The attack lasted more than five hours, with air defense reportedly shooting down more than 40 drones.
Ukraine’s air force said that Saturday night was also record-breaking in terms of Shahed drone attacks across the country. Of the 54 drones launched, 52 were shot down by air defense systems.
https://www.armytimes.com/flashpoints/ukraine/2023/05/28/russia-launched-largest-drone-attack-on-ukrainian-capital/

 

NEW YORK — Vice President Kamala Harris, the first woman to deliver a commencement speech at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, lauded graduating cadets Saturday for their noble sacrifice in serving their country, but noted they were entering an “unsettled world” because of Russian aggression and the rising threats from China.

“To the Class of 2023: You join the greatest fighting force the world has ever seen,” Harris said. “And in years to come, I promise you, you will be tried, and you will be tested.”

 

They've allowed her out have they? She seems to be absolute electoral poison these days, who's is probably why Biden is running again.

It's still weird to see the Democrats so hawkish.

 

That last sentence- sounds like they are itching to get something started to show what they think they could do. Can we hope that if so , it’s because they have something up their sleeve that would end it before the world and humanity is decimated?

 

Yeah it's a frightening statement when you think about it.

 

I appalled Mrs Smug, at the start of this conflict, by saying I thought Ukraine should've protested but not resisted. I thought we were going into a ten year conflict that would end with Russia holding more territory anyway.

The death, destruction, refugees and civilian casualties was always going to be enormous for little gain on either side. I also find the response of the USA,UK Europe, etc, to be be hypocritical and a little cowardly.

I honestly believe it would've been better to have allowed Russia to play their stupid game and protest, sanction and exert diplomatic pressure. I believe the Ukrainians are suffering more the way this has been handled and it will only get worse.

I ask myself how many would've been killed, imprisoned or displaced if there'd be no military response.

 

The problem is, once they'd capture Ukraine what is stopping them threatening the baltic states. If the roles were reversed, there is no way we'd back down, no matter what cost. Freedom is worth fighting for.

 

Wouldn’t we then have no more independent Ukraine?
The Russian aim was to bring the whole of Ukraine back under Soviet rule. They tried to encircle Kiev, the idea being a swift victory, a puppet government and another Belarus.
I take your point about the casualties, refugees and so on. It’s a terrible cost. But I don’t think we could have let Putin claim any sort of victory.
I would like to see a Ukranian push back, Russian dissidents becoming more aggressive and Putin with a pike up his arse.

 

****ing hell.

'I have in my hand a piece of paper'....

 

You can’t give in to bullies, and Putin is a bully personified. Sends over 100s of drones killing people then complains when he gets half back in return. Gets weapons from Iran, North Korea and South Africa and whinges like a bairn when the west supplies Ukraine.Well done Ukraine, hopefully the next step is to smash the rag tag army into the ground

 

I totally with you all and the sentiments you've expressed, all valid.

There are two issues that make the situation more unclear and difficult.

Firstly that, over the last hundred or two hundred years Ukraine, or parts of it, have been Russian, Polish, Austrian, etc. It's history of self government, over the last twenty years or so hasn't been too stable from memory. So it's slightly different to a situation whereby Russia invades a long standing country like Switzerland as an example.

Secondly if everyone believes Russia is fundamentally and totally wrong I don't believe it's enough to sneak Ukraine arms and planes. If this was Romania invading Ukraine would we stand by and allow it. I don't think it's enough to take a few yachts off Oligarchs or send tanks, etc. We should tell Putin straight that he either takes his army back to Russia or it's declaring war on Europe and the USA.

In my opinion it's one thing or the other, not this fudge we have at the moment.

 

Mate I said just the same. Severe sanctions to turn the people on him and secure other regions was what I said but he got what he wanted - a battle - and heaven knows what comes next at what cost.

 

He expected to have his man installed in Kyiv in less than a week.

 

I'd love the people to turn on.him mate, it would be wonderful ...

... but it ain't going to happen, not ever.

 

Usa UK etc could not justifiably, on a global politics perspective, declared war on Russia at the beginning of the war. Risk of Nuclear war, china, other geo political reasons

This approach, though Ukraine suffers (but I'm sure they prefer this to being overrun), is the best option for the western powers. Proxy war, defeat Russia/show them up, without weakening ourselves and show a united front. Putin is weakened, a defeat could end him.

1. Let Russia take Ukraine. Western nations seen as weak, Russia emboldened, Baltic States next, china sees weakness

2. Threaten Russia with war, follow up on threat, west seen as agressive or at least portrayed as agressive by main rivals. Risk of Nuclear war. We didn't realise Russia was as **** as Ukraine has proven them to be, probably thought they wouldn't be a pushover, or at least weren't sure. Public opinion at home if we sent our own troops. Risk splitting NATO. (It's taken months to get to the point where all nations agree to send weapons, never mind declare war). And let's not forget reliance on Russia oil and gas, war would have plunged half of Europe into cold winter and even higher energy cost than it already has.



Under international law it's a sovereign country invaded by a foreign country. I'm sure Ukrainians, or the majority of them, don't want to be ruled by a mad Putin. So it's right that we're supporting them imo. And though modern Ukraine hasn't existed very long, in the 9th century Kyivan Rus was it's own state, with Kiev as it's capital, for a few hundred years. So it's got a long history.


Anyway, all of that just to say, I don't think the solutions/options were black and white. And this fudge has its reasons

 

Russia's defence ministry says it has thwarted a major Ukrainian offensive in Donetsk, claiming to have killed 250 troops and destroyed armoured vehicles.

Video of what Russia says is the battle appears to show military vehicles coming under heavy fire in fields.

But there has been no comment from Kyiv and Russia's claim has not been independently verified.

A Ukrainian counter-offensive has been promised, but on Sunday, Kyiv called for silence ahead of the operation.

As yet it is unclear whether the alleged attacks indicate that the fresh offensive to recapture Ukrainian land from Russian forces has started in earnest.

The Russian defence ministry said Ukraine had launched the "large-scale offensive" in the Donetsk region on Sunday using six mechanised and two tank battalions.

It claimed the Ukrainians tried to break through Russian defences in what Kyiv saw as the most vulnerable part of the frontline but that it "did not achieve its tasks, it had no success".

Moscow claimed Ukraine had lost 250 troops as well as 16 tanks.

 

https://www.arnnet.com.au/article/7...-campaign-also-hit-kaspersky-lab/?fp=2&fpid=1
Russia points finger at US for iPhone exploit campaign that also hit Kaspersky Lab
The Operation Triangulation surveillance campaign infects Apple iPhones without the need for user action and is difficult to detect.

 

As maniacs go, historically and presently, Putin is right up there

 

There's absolutely nothing for Russia to gain from this.

The parents of every dead Russian soldier must wonder why a country so immense needs more territory ...

... Putin is killing people, from both countries, for his ego, Stalin must be turning in his mausoleum.

 

And you'd be of exactly the same opinion if it was the UK the Orcs invaded?