Off Topic Politics Thread

Rees-Mogg's firm doing well out of the crisis. Who would have thought?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jacob-rees-moggs-investment-firm-21814351?f

 

So Rees-Mogg owns 15% of a company which invests in public companies falling share values. He's a "Short". Basically, his company invests in other companies failing. There have been calls for this practice to be declared illegal, as Shorts do everything they can to artificially drive down the value of companies they invest in. It's a bloody odd way to invest, but basically a Short will sell a company's shares at high value and calculate that the company will drop in value, and if it doesn't they will put the word around that they should. Inevitably, the company value drops [selling large amounts drops the price eventually anyway, which can start a trend], and then the Short buys the shares back at a much cheaper price. And more often than not, a Short will not risk their own money, but borrow another investor's shares to make their manoeuvre, and then skim a percentage.

So, nice bloke, I don't think.

 

So tell me, beyond the word "nationalism", which has a very inconsistent deployment historically, what similarities do you see between the SNP and, say, Rassemblement National in France?

 

I don't know anything about Rassemblement National, is that a rebranding of Front National?

I don't know much about them either, except that they have spent most of the last thirty years trying to acquire a veneer of respectability; and that they have grown in popularity as more and more French electors have become disillusioned with mainstream political parties. Rather as the SNP have grown in popularity as Scottish electors have become disillusioned with mainstream UK political parties.

Look, I'm not arguing that the SNP are fascist. But nothing happens in a vacuum, and their rise to power certainly hasn't. Nationalism is on the rise all over Europe. Only Greece has bucked this trend, their electorate turning to radical Socialism when faced with economic collapse. Unfortunately for Athens (home of one of Europe's first experiments in democracy) the ECB and IMF, acting to protect the international banking industry, had robbed them of their sovereignty by that point, making it largely irrelevant which government they elected.

 

I think Archers that like many on the left you cannot find enough cynicism within yourself to acknowledge the weakness of the human condition. My dad was just like you, he couldn't bring himself to condemn people who were in dire need of condemnation. We used to joke that he would say that Hitler was kind to animals.

But there comes a point, and with me in came in the mid eighties. I had been in support of Arthur Scargill during the strike and I did a cycle ride from Lowestoft to Clay Cross in Derbyshire ( you will probably get the relevance of that) raising nearly a grand for miners families at Christmas. But even I had to acknowledge that Arthur's tactics were not clever. Corbyn fell into similar traps. As somebody observed " Nobody ever lost a fortune by underestimating the intelligence of the public."

 

Gary Lineker on Marr calling for all rich people to make a contribution. How great it is to see an intelligent and compassionate footballer.

 

The main surge in the support for the SNP in the last few years has come from disillusionment with the failure of the other Westminster opposition parties, especially Labour, to mount a serious obstacle to Brexit. Most of the drop in Labour’s votes in Scotland went to the SNP, after all. But their main election planks in 2019 could have come from any centre-left party: ending austerity, eradicating poverty and inequality, ending the “hostile environment” of UK immigration policy, scrapping Trident, passing an NHS Protection Law, and investing in anti-climate change infrastructure.

I get that you’re hung up on the “National” part of their handle, but I bet that didn’t stop your supporting the African National Congress during the apartheid years?

 

You'll get no argument from me there mate. I think Scargill betrayed those miners every bit as much as Thatcher did.

I don't put Corbyn in that category at all though.

 

Not everything is about Brexit mate, seriously.


As for the ANC, weren't they committed to Pan Africanism, in response to centuries of European imperialism? With the intention of uniting all African tribes as one Nation? So rather different.

Had they been the Zulu National Congress, I doubt Mandela would ever have been their leader..

 

The problem I have with Nicola Sturgeon is that she alleges to be "progressive" but she is an avowed opponent of Labour. It isn't just the Conservatives she dislikes, it is Labour too. I seem to recall that it was her dislike of Labour that inspired her to join the SNP in the first place.

Nicola Sturgeon's position in British politics is really difficult to judge unbiasedly. I cannot stand her whilst, at the same time, I would concede that she is probably has the greatest stature of any politician from the UK since Margaret Thatcher. I would stop short of saying she is on a par with Winston Churchill who I think was seriously overrated anyway. She has won every argument against each and every UK political leader she has encountered, in most cases making mincemeat of them. Even Cameron could not defeat her decisively and his decision to hold an EU referendum affectively gave her a new lease of life. I do not see anyone ever defeating her. She is clearly the greatest politician of her age in the UK. As an Englishman, I feel she hits home every time because her arguments about being denied democracy are correct. In the last poll, she should have won but was denied victory partly because the media were keen to explore the issue from an English perspective and this unwittingly had an influence. Also, Westminster interference in the last poll was fatally damaging Any future poll needs to specifically exclude any influence from Westminster as this effectively allowed the message that Scotland could not exist economically outside the union. I believe that this has subsequently be shown to be incorrect and Scotland is, in fact, a net contributor.

On the downside, there is no doubt in my mind that the popularity of the SNP has kept weak Tory governments in power. This cannot be denied. Ironically, Ian Blackford as effectively been a second leader of the opposition albeit his arguments have centred around Scotland. What I feel needs to be said is that Scotland has a population of 6 million which about 60% of that of Greater London. Politically, within the Union is ounches above it;s weight. Scotland should realy not be any more powerful than say Yorkshire. A country with a population of 6 million has put it;s own self interest ahead of the poor and disadvanatged in the other members of the Union. I do not think that Scotland has been opressed by Westminster government and it just strikes me that Sturgeon is not a team player.

There is no logical democratic argument against Sturgeon's position. She holds the moral high ground which is exacerbated by a English Prime Minister who holds her in contempt. If RLB had been elected Labour leader, she would gave allowed the Scots to have another referendum. She would have bonded more with Sturgeon although I am not sure how good a thing this is.

Personally, I am inclined to let Scotland go it's own way and see how to manages things itself. I do not think it will sink without trace but the SNP will then become irrelevant , a bit like UKIP. Their record in government has not been great but I would like to see Scotland given a chance but on the provisio once they are out, they should not be allowed back in to the Union. If Sturgeon is smart and she can convince the EU to take them on board, she should be making a play to the financial institutions in London to head north of the boarder where they will have the same impact as had previously been the case. I do not think she will be convincing enough to do this. I think she will get her own way within the next 2-3 years but strongly feel it may be a case of being careful for what you wish for. I just feel that a lot of Scottish business will head south and English business working in Scotland are currently looking to leave should the Scots get independence. Personally, I would like to see Scotland get independence as I do not feel that I would want people who are happy to play politics with people's lives to be part of my country. Like many English people, I would be happy for them to leave if they do not want to work together as a team. If the Scottish had genuinely suffered under rule from Westminster, you would support them 100% but this is not exactly the Highland clearings we are talking about! The reality is likely that the ordinary people will suffer more at their economy will not maintain a country with severe social issues at the current level they enjoy.

 

Your argument is fatuous Ian. Rebecca lost, and even if she had become Labour leader, with the way the media work in this country she wouldn’t have had a hope of forming a government, so Indyref2 wouldn’t happen anyway. Personally when it comes to Brexit I have far more in common with the SNP than with Labour.

 

Yes, but unless you declare your nationality as Scottish, they are never going to represent you. Now do you see the problem?

Labour will represent you wether you are English, Scottish, Polish or Lebanese, so long as you reside somewhere in the UK

 

Now you really are mistaken. All I would have to do is move to Scotland.

 

Yes, you could do that, certainly.

I could move to France. I probably won’t though. Too far from St Mary’s for a start

 

Hey I already thought of that As I am at least 50% Scottish I might just do that anyway.........

 

Actually the prospect of moving to Ireland, with the democratic socialist Sinn Fein resurgent in the polls appeals too.

 

You voted for Brexit mate, the only honourable course for you is to stay on the sinking ship...

 

You’re making lots of friends this morning Archers!

 

Do you know what Sinn Fein means in Gaelic? They’ve always been a Nationalist party, one that has frequently flirted with revolutionary Socialism but never been comfortable with it.

 

It’s all intended to be taken in good humour. Not gonna hide my opinions for anyone though.