Match Day Thread Tottenham Hotspur v Bournemouth

Haven't had time to wade through the entire thread but just going to say I am reeling after that shambolic performance but will try to keep my comments brief and level headed:

- There is something desperately wrong with the mentality of the team. All those citing Chelsea 3 years ago are spot on. All those citing the CL are missing the point of what a winning mentality means: when you're the underdog (e.g. playing against Dortmund or City) it's all well and good as there isn't really any objective pressure. But there is a cold headed ruthlessness we've never had under Poch to just kill teams off when we are the favourites and desperately need the win.
- Eric Dier is apparently the worst culprit of this malaise, having shown against Chelsea and today that he simply cannot be trusted to keep calm when the pressure is on.
- Situations like today require respected on field leadership. We possess one player with that quality. Harry Kane. Today showed that we don't just miss his goals, we miss his presence, his example, his temperament. He is a player who is able to play with a lot of fire and passion yet you'll rarely see the red mist descend simply because he is always in control.
- I posted a while ago that I had made my peace with this season and have accepted with an air of finality that the current chapter under Poch is coming to an end. It's been largely a great ride and a fantastic adventure, but it is time to start bidding farewell to this group of players and start rebuilding almost from scratch, same way he did in 2014/15 and 2015/16 when IIRC 2 dozen players were moved on from the club which cleared the ground to sow the seeds of what remains by a country mile our most impressive domestic season in 2016/17. It's a crying shame that this fantastic group weren't able to win anything (even if we progress to the final we simply aren't good enough to beat Barca or Pool without Kane), but the writing is on the wall: It's time for Levy to open the purse and fund Chapter 2. Poch himself has an awful lot to learn but the bottom line is his players have let him down far too many times with appallingly naive performances. If it takes missing out on top 4 to trigger this process, I have made peace with that too. I just don't see us having a 'core' anymore around which a ruthless squad of winners can be built.

To my mind, the following players should now be phased out over the next 2 summers, mirroring the clear out we saw in Poch's first season:

Summer 2019:
GKN
Janssen
Wanyama
Aurier
Toby (if no contract)
Eriksen (if no contract)
Lamela

Summer 2020:
Trippier
Dier
Jan
Alli (no, this isn't a joke. He's on borrowed time as far as i'm concerned)
Lloris
Rose


Plus an entourage of the players we send out on loan every year.

It may be a bit scorched earth I admit but it just ain't happening with this group.

EDIT: Just added Lamela to this summer. The fact I'd forgotten about his existence kind of tells the whole story.

 

You are quite like me mate. If I had been told before the season that we would go into the last week needing to win the last two matches to get into the CL final and finish third in the PL, I would have bitten your arm off. If you had told me we had done this despite playing most matches at Wembley and Kane, Lamela, Wanyama, Dier and Winks being missing for a lot of the time, I would have been astounded. We were terrible today and have been poor in a few matches but our current run of away defeats includes creditable displays against Liverpool and Man City. We have won 11 matches away from home, not too shabby.

 

All hunky dory then. Nothing to worry about.

 

I never said that. It’s a lot better than we could have expected but we are still only the third best team in England and the sixth best in Europe so winning things is not a given.

 

Nailed it, brother (with the exception of Jan going in 2020, he can stay for as long as he likes providing his performances don't drop or it's on his times, IE wanting a return to Ajax which I'd wish him all the best for).

Although you and I agreeing is never a good thing. A beloved celebrity is bound to die now or an asteroid's smacking into Amsterdam the moment I land on Monday morning.

 

I think the club triggering a year extension but no more was a nod in the direction of him leaving at the end of next season as a free agent with his head held high. A true servant of the club who remains my favourite player.

As for the others. Yes, Toby, Eriksen, Dele, Dier, Rose, Lloris etc etc have all had magnificent periods here and have contributed massively to our general progress, but there has to come a point where the painful questions need to be asked: is this guy, going as he is into his 5th/6th/7th season at the club, really a part of hopefully a bright new future? Or is the time approaching to admit: it was close but no cigar, thank you and fare thee well?

 

I agree with the vast majority of this...maybe swap the order of a few players around *cough TRIPPIER cough* but apart from that...phase two of the project needs to start this summer and being ‘brave’ needs to be not just spending money or being contrarian when needed but also saying goodbye to players who’s time has come.

Poch has a big job on this summer, make no mistake.

I almost feel like he’s lost control of the squad a bit. He signs a lot of young players and the vibe I got from a lot of the squad, especially a few years ago, is that Poch is the leader, almost the captain in the group. That isn’t sustainable as players get older, the base of this squad have been together three or four years or more and none of them have stepped up as leaders, with the possible exception of Harry Kane. Poch needs to learn to not only make young players play better, which by and large he is able to do, but also let them come out from under his influence and be leaders themselves. Without that we will always stumble as generations of players mature, especially when key players get injured.

 

I think kane is a part of the 6 games of the last 11 mate (lose 4, draw 1 win 1)

 

And if that is the case he goes with my blessing.

As for those players you've mentioned and the squad in general, it does feel as though we've peaked, some great and enjoyable football over the last few years but ultimately fallen short at the final or penultimate hurdle. They haven't been helped though by the club, whose failure to strengthen in the past two windows has had serious consequences. What was a side initially needing just a couple of players last summer, is now a squad needing roughly 4 or 5, possibly more this summer.

The worries I now have are:
If/ when Eriksen or Toby go, how do we replace them without seeing a drop in quality?
Will we shift enough deadwood in order to make adequate room?
Will Poch be brave and sack off some of the players whom he's relied so heavily upon over the past 3/4/5 years that are now ultimately just not good enough any more?

 

You know I'm literally Trippier's biggest fan, right?

Realistically I don't think we'd risk or even be able to sell both RBs this summer. Given the choice I'd sell Aurier first as he is just as crap but is also really injury-ridden. Trippier is a resilient little bugger, I'll give him that much.

You make some fascinating points in your second paragraph. Don't get me wrong I love Poch and regard him as the best PL manager we've ever had, and I know that saying this is regarded as blasphemous by many posters on here, but for me the jury is still very much out on him. The Kane situation is a strange one: two or three times now we've seen him rushed back prematurely from pretty bad injuries and has clearly affected the overall tempo of the team. Who is sanctioning these early returns? You talk about player power and leaders...has it gone too far in Kane's case? Is he dictating to the coaching staff when he should or should not be risked? Would Poch have the balls to say 'no' to a semi-fit Kane desperate to play? I'm not so sure, because Kane is pretty much indispensable. He knows it, Poch knows it, we know it. Heck, everyone but DGC knows it. Do certain players have too much power, perhaps? Is Lloris captain simply because he'll be a loyal yes man? Is Poch nervous to give even more authority to Kane, similar to Sheringham under Hoddle?

Poch's authority currently rests on the strength of his personality alone which granted is a top notch one, but is it a coincidence that once players stop caring about his personality and that bond breaks down for whatever reason, there is literally no way back for them or for Poch and they are either sold or dropped until such a time as a sale becomes possible? When a manager lacks a glittering CV, other than sheer force of character what compels players to believe in them? I'm wondering out loud here because I'm not sure myself.

Putting it another way; I know he's a pantomime villain, but would Maureen have allowed a semi-fit Kane to return so early so regularly? I doubt it. And unlike Poch who ultimately can only say 'trust me, I think I know what I'm doing', other managers can say 'trust me, I know what I am doing'. To say this doesn't make a difference to professional players is naive, in my opinion. I played sunday league at a pretty high level (for sunday league anyway ) which meant we always had a manager who was an ex pro himself and often had scouts from lower league clubs at our games, and I remember the shift from one season to the next when we had a manager who was a pro and played regularly (for Ipswich) and one who was a pro but was only a bit part player (for Barnsley). Both were lovely guys and clearly very talented footballers even after retiring, but the contrast in respect we had for them was enormous. Under the first manager we swept the honours board then he moved to a coaching position in the States and less than a year later we almost got relegated under the second manager because we just didn't 'buy in' to his methods, knowing as we did that he'd been a relative failure as a pro and whenever he said 'trust me, I've been through this', we didn't trust him and so didn't listen.

And that's Poch. Really, really nice guy, but as of yet never moving beyond the 'I think I know' stage. And he'll never move beyond that until we start winning things. CL qualification isn't enough in a division currently led by the likes of Pep and to a lesser extent Klopp. And if Pool win a major trophy this year, the ground shifts even further away from Poch.

I've rambled on long enough and have probably made plenty of enemies already so I might as well KO myself here and now:

Poch has 2 more seasons max. to make that shift happen. After that, it is time to move on. Now I know that won't be popular with many, but just as Poch is our best ever PL manager, BMJ was once too, and after him Harry was. And neither of them had the ability to move us beyond the chapter they'd taken us to. Poch has 2 more years to prove that he can buck that trend.

 

I remember that relegation season too.That was when our Div 1 team seemed to get old all at the same time....and Pat moving on to Aresenal (that one really hurt!)
But I quite enjoyed the season in Div 2 with Keith which led him to visit Argentina and bringing to the Lane Ricky and Osvaldo for our quick return to Div ! and even more enjoyment with Glenn and company.
Mind you,this season could put many fans in the bloody nuthouse!

 

Liked 100x

I’m starting to think Poch has gotten too close to the players in the last few years. When he first came here, the stories we heard from the Spurs players (and from some of the Southampton players he worked with who have since gone on to better things - with the greatest respect to Southampton) were that he worked his players very hard but they loved him for it because they saw the results.

We certainly saw that from him in the early days. We’re seeing a different side now. Yes, he’s maturing as a manager, and this is to be expected. But I fear he’s losing the edge that made him such a hit in the first place. He was ruthless and drove the players hard - this resulted in a committed team that were absolute bastards to play against.

I’ve said on here before that after this season, we’re in a new era for Poch. We got to our aims for the first 5 years of the project ahead of schedule, if you consider the aim that we were to be a consistent CL team and have the stadium built by the end of the first 5 years. His challenge now is to take us to the next level. We will see some turnover this summer but there will be a core of players who have grown up under him and are now established players for club and country, not young guns shooting for the stars. He needs to prove he can handle that situation, which is different to the underdog status he has held at his previous jobs, including his first few years at Spurs. Like it or not we’re a top 6 side now and have proven we can finish top 3, he needs to motivate those players to the same extent he could 3/4 years ago, not to mention new arrivals who are established players in their own right, not just the young ambitious players who join to make their names at Spurs.

Poch has been the best manager I have seen at our club in my admittedly short lifetime. But that doesn’t mean I won’t call out when I feel he needs to change or do more. What’s coming is a real test for him, the squad and the club in general. There is no guarantee he will succeed, though of course I will support him and the club to the end.

 

Didn't the teams performances start to go down the drain afterRose's initial comments?

 

The performances have dropped drastically since United ignored the media calls for Poch and picked Ole instead

 

Not convinced Diego.He had a run of easy pickings and United took 'em. But he's since had a bad run.(Like us!)

 

Late night wum mate but I can accept it was a pretty low level poor attempt


Was expecting "other" people to bite though

 

Fantastic set of posts here last night, have 'enjoyed' reading peoples comments far more than the game itself.

If the team could display the same level of commitment and dedication to the cause that the posters here have over the next 7 days then we would be fine and if @C. Kane & @The Huddlefro could get an audience with Poch and Levy then we might make some progress

 

A lot of doom and gloom on this thread, from myself included.
Although it’s unlikely, it’s also crazy to think that the **** form of the other CL chasers could continue today...
At 6.15pm we may be in the CL

Never gonna happen though.

 

I was so disappointed with spurs yesterday, a very unprofessional performance discipline wise and very spursy missing all those chances in the first half but everyone could see the sucker punch coming, dier should have been sent off sonny was just stupid to react like he did and Foyth deserved his red card. Hats off to the 9 players in the second half to play as well as they did and we deserved a draw for sheer effort but it all boiled down to not taking our chances and that makes a mockery of DGC saying we are better off without Kane cos he would have taken some of them chances and the game would have been dead and buried. I'm in the half glass full opinion and if you would have said to me at the start of the season we would make the champions league semi and be in contention for top 4 with one league game left I would have bitten your hand off .with all the injuries the Wembley factor considered we have had a good season .cheer up lads it's not all that bad poch knows where we need to strengthen and I'm sure he is already planning what he is gonna do .COYS

 

It is a dig and you know it is!!!