That was Bruce to blame - My thoughts on the Man City game

Don't see why we lynch specific players after a battering.

If you lose 5-0 everyone was ****. End of.

 

Personally thought it was interesting to see everyone who was crying their eyes out at playing 5 at the back in the cup now blaming Bruce for going to a defensive 4 at the back formation against the highest scoring team in the league and getting battered with a reserve squad.

City are leagues ahead of us and it was always a hiding to nothing. The players who came in though were a disgrace. For me it was fantastic management in resting key players for a game where I think the maximum expectation was to put up a decent fight - the players did not deliver that what so ever. Bruce was clearly appalled but what is the point in piling on the players after a humiliating defeat like that? There is no benefit.

We have 3 way more important games coming up vs Watford, Spurs and Brighton where 5/6/7 points should be the aim.

Thought Lazaro for all he was our best outlet was shocking in his defensive contribution, Fernandez had the worst game I've seen from him all season. Shelvey at points looked like he'd given up - there was one point he battled for the ball won a tackle, ball ricocheted around and ended up at a City player no more than 2 yards away and he just stood there watching - probably the biggest disappointment of the game for me.

I think the only thing you could criticise Bruce for was where the players were playing. Think this would have been more sensible:

-------------Dubz-------------
Kraft-Schar-Fernandez-Rose
------------Bentaleb----------
Yedlin-Ritchie-Shelvey-Lazaro
---------------Joe--------------

 

All good mate I'm just pissing around as always

Its his attitude which concerns me. Its clear he has ability. I thought he was decent the game before, and very good against Bournemouth. Aside from that he's been pretty poor, but I saw something I didn't like from players the other night. Downing tools and the body language was horrific. Rose is the same. We can't afford players like that regardless of takeover. We are either gonna be in the same relegation fight, or trying to get somewhere special. You can't carry folk just for when they fancy it. I've seen enough relegations now to know exactly what type of player will take you down. Rose and Bentaleb are prime examples. Generally in football there is no smoke without fire. If teams are keen to offload or refuse to involve players, there is a story why. Its like HBA, his career is littered with behavioural problems. Some fans are all doey eyed and see a lad with endless ability, but its ****ing useless if the attitude is wrong. Hence he had a **** career for his ability.

Rose has already openly said he doesn't like football. It doesn't half ****ing show.

Bentaleb left Spurs under a cloud after falling out with Poch, but vowed he had learnt from his mistakes. He went to Schalke and repeated the mistake. Dropped down for 3 weeks, allowed back and within a week he was relegated again for discipline issues. I think its clear we have another Adel Tarrabt, Ben Arfa like situ. Problem is I'm not even sure he has Tarrabt type ability nevermind Ben Arfa. Bruce seems to think he can manage his behaviour when he signed him. He acknowledged he was probably gonna have a few arguments. The problem for me is a manager can do little about players not fancying it.

 

I would normally agree but Bentaleb was so bad and his attitude was disgraceful, I think he deserves exactly what he's getting from the fans. I'm not having that **** off players I have to say. I may pay a lot of money into the club annually, but its not even about that. I just don't think fans should have to sit silently being good happy clappers when someone is clearly taking the piss out of their club.

 

No it shows he can do it in isolation.

Football is more than just about having ability. You've got to be able to apply yourself, and we are seeing already what Mr Pochettino and Mr Stevens were non-plussed with. If we are just going to ignore the other night and his application as a result of playing Man C, then sign this type, there is no point moaning when we are relegated. That's what your Bentalebs and Roses will bring.

Bentaleb has been poor overall so far performance wise. To now be adding his bad attitude back in to the mix, no thanks.

Hopefully its all academic, a takeover is going ahead and we won't be wasting time on dossers like Rose and Bentaleb.

 

like the other 10 vs city

zzzzzz

 

I think we saw a few players who were not fit to wear the shirt for a variety of reasons to be fair. But trying to apply a one size fits all to assessing them is not logical.

You pointed out a good couple of examples where you can have a terrible game, but still apply yourself. I couldn't fault Ritchie or Kraft's effort, they were just gash in terms of output and quality.

Bentaleb didn't try, that's the difference. So no not like the other 10 players at all. There were 2 or maybe 3 I'd say just didn't try (Bentaleb included). Then there were another 2 I'd say who only tried in spells (Rose being one - again...)

The problem is if you are here on a temporary loan because your current club don't want you for being a tit, and you can't even be arsed to try and impress, then I'm pretty bewildered at what is going on in your head to be honest. Another player I think didn't try was Shelvey. Annoying but its not his modus operandi in general. I can forgive the odd game. However I can't for a loan player, and I certainly can't forgive it being a bit of habit. Add in having a history of being a lazy ****, then I'm done. **** has been given a chance he scarcely deserves and can't be arsed?

 

this is a separate argument entirely

 

We have 3 games in 9 days starting with Watford. Players were already looking paggered. Almiron has a thigh injury, ASM was injured, Hayden injured and looked dead against WH. There was a catalogue of issues. 100% the right decision to sacrifice the Man C game in favour of fancying us to do better against Watford, Spurs and Brighton. Clearly tricky games with Watford and Brighton having stuff to play for, and Spurs are a good side but struggling. If we pick up 4 points or more from those three games, he will feel fully vindicated.

It clearly does not excuse some of the effort which was a disgrace as you say. I'm not bothered about getting beat 5-0 off Man C. **** happens, they're a ****ing great attacking side. But its not on watching Bentaleb and Shelvey just not trying. **** that. There is never an excuse for it. I had my mate prattling on about Bentaleb having an 89% pass accuracy and Shelvey stats being decent too. I could not get through to him that he didn't need a load of stats to assess their performance. Open your eyes, watch the ****ing game! They were both ****e, so it annoys me when people try to use stats to defend the indefensible. It was again a good example of why stats can't assess a game or performance for you, only help confirm what you were thinking.

I fancy us to get something at Watford. I know they've picked up a result, but I think our full side is confident at the moment.

 

guess what klopp uses

yep stats

 

This is just getting better. So you think Klopp uses stats as the sole instrument of assessing players and performance? I think you need some muesli today fella.

He simply uses stats well.

His judgement and eye for a player is fantastic. He clearly has good scouts too.

 

not just that actually.. ever seen moneyball?

 

Yep. Good film.

Not how Klopp does it though, so not relevant.

Different sport too.

Muesli mate. Get it.

 

different sport but he does the same thing

 

He doesn't actually. Before he came to Liverpool he never used stats at all. However when he arrived at Liverpool, he was given a research department. They persuaded him (or one particular guy did) its had its uses to provide him with the best information to help make the best decisions. Klopp himself has commented how he feels he was missing out earlier in his career. He is also quick to point out it can't be the sole determination of buying players or assessing football matches. He understands the game is far more complex than that. Hence he is a great manager. He uses everything at his disposal.

People clearly don't understand the Moneyball film at all. The reason for Billy Beane using that approach is nothing to do with it being the best way to win games. It was a blueprint of how to be successful under financial constraints. The difference is important. It is accepted too that baseball lends itself to this because of its simplicity.

 

so he does

I used that as an example...not like for like

stats are a huge part of the game now..for recruitment and selection along with countless others... you can't just use your eye because it's way to miss things and miscalculated based on emotional bias for a start

 

I must be emotionally biased against Bentaleb because I really struggle to see what the fuss is about. He is a lazy, average player with little to no fight and very little flair.

I could apply a similar description and comment to Rose but tempered by the comment that he has more talent but simply doesn’t apply it.

I would buy neither of them.

Lazaro I believe does have potential but we haven’t played him enough to see properly.

 

yes you're

 

Nope he doesn't base his entire assessment of performance or players on stats. It's just one of the many cogs that has them functioning as the best team in England this year. I'm sure Klopp relies on his eyes 1ST, and then asks his statisticians for a report. I assume he assesses that report to confirm what he thought. If the stats and his thoughts don't match up, I assume they'll go back over the game to see whether the stats are simply not able to have context, or his eyes have indeed missed something.

That is what he has suggested in interviews. Indeed I think its a similar process for most PL teams. Then you get someone like Allardyce who was much more heavily reliant on them. He would look at the percentages of playing long balls into certain areas and things like that. Its an extremely limited way of doing it, but for a team like say Bolton you can see why that moneyball type approach can help.

You certainly don't stats to see Bentaleb had a shocker. I saw him quite clearly give the ball away a in dangerous areas, one of which led to a goal. I also saw him caught in possession countless times doing stupid pirouettes with no knowledge of what's around him. You don't always need stats. Sometimes players are just so **** and lazy, you can just call it.

 

I never said he did .

you're opening up separate arguments based on a misunderstanding mate ...

stats are used alot... eyes can't be relied upon as proved the game before city when everyone on here said bentaleb gave it away more than he didn't... I provided the stat to demonstrate how their eyes were deceived through their emotions