Scottish Independence

I thought I would start a thread on this very emotive subject just to see what views the esteemed forum members on here hold.

My penny's worth for what it's worth

I hope that the people of Scotland will vote to remain part of the UK, the reasons I feel this are less to do with any economic viewpoint but more about really disliking nationalism. Whilst the Scottish independence campaign would play down any nationalist sentiment I feel they are nationalist through and through and that it was the motivating force behind the push for independence. I feel in this age we need try to dissolve the barriers that create an 'us' and 'them' wherever they are found as it is this fundamental division that crates the environment for persecution and separation. The idea that anyone fundamentally believes themselves a nationality is hard to fathom, that anyone is fundamentally English or Scottish, French or German is absurd as they are simply human beings. It is the same with religion in that no one can be anything other than a human being, of course it's possible to identify oneself as being a Jew or a Hindu etc etc but of course it's not what we are, it's just an ideology that we follow, often unchosen, but rather inherited, but it's just an idea. Now I have no problem with people using different ideas, belief systems, imagery, terminology and narratives to try and understand the most fundamental mysteries of our existence and self awareness but surely we don't want to imagine the ideas as what we actually are, and to bring it back to Scotland I have no issue with terms that identify geographical region and geographical history, but given the choice I would choose to bring us closer rather than further apart in the 21st centaury.

A few other general points
I would imagine the economics would make little difference to either side in the foreseeable future and it may take 10 - 20 years before any noticeable difference were able to be measured. I feel Alex Salmond needs to address the currency thing as to simply say that the RUK are bluffing is not good enough. I also feel Nicola Sturgeon is way out of her depth in that she has been made over and coached to within an inch of her life, but I remember listening to her before this and she seemed woefully short of a vice president of a nation state of sorts. I also feel that the nuclear scrapping issue is opportunistic in that they say this and would indeed spend very little on defence in the full knowledge that the RUK would have to keep it secure in order to maintain it's own security. I ultimately feel that there is a fair amount of devolved power already in Scotland which is used to make education and health care far more available than in the RUK.

I actually feel that the Scottish people will vote No by a very small margin and that it will be the best result for them as they will gain even more devolved power through the closeness of the vote frightening the Ruk, and Scotland may end up a pampered region of sorts simply because The RUK realise through that they cannot really afford to let the UK be broken up if hoping to retain it's already diminishing position in the world.

The potential problem for Scotland is that the stirring up of nationalistic sentiment may create a divided Scotland, something that may be to the detriment of communities and the general harmony.

I don't feel it's possible on the figures to realistically say that Scotland do not do ok as part of the Union nor that they could not function just as well alone, I feel there would be little in it and they would not collapse nor turn into this utopia that is suggested if only freed from the shackles of Westminster. As I feel there is so little in it I feel it comes down to some people who feel identified with being Scottish and simply want to assert themselves and write themselves into history.

What are your views?

As an aside however calling the referendum so soon after the commonwealth games was always going to give the yes vote a boost and cold actually be the 3 or 4 % difference that ends up being enough to cause a surprise.

 

Although I am not a 'Nationalist' I will be voting for independence in the referendum. The opening ceremony of the Commonwealth Games and the treatment to English fans and competitors show that there is no animocity; I do not say that there are no headbangers up here (Edinburgh). I have been out celebrating Germany's win in the World Cup and was involved in many discussions about the vote in local and city centre bars/pubs. Again there was no animocity.

I am prepared to accept there would be teething problems however as a sixty year old retiree I want to live in a socialist country. I think I may have mentioned this before in another thread however there is great wealth in some parts of the major cities of Scotland but no conservative MPs.

I am able to see both sides of the arguement in particular your main points about the currency and the nuclear question; compromises?

I am also very worried about the growing desire in England to come out the EU but again accept that it could take the usual period of 7/8 years for an Independent Scotland to be accepted as a member.

Anyway, whatever the outcome I will continue to make my annual visit th 'Trials Day' at Cheltenham towards the end of January.

 

And what of the debate between the merits of nationalism and patriotism? From what I've read, it would seem that what the Scots want is probably not nationalism, but just the chance to stand on their own feet.

Johannes Rau once stated. “A patriot is somebody who loves his homeland. A nationalist is somebody who despises the homelands of others.”

 

This, kowtowing to the Scots, is the reason I have arrived at a situation where I hope they vote YES.

 

I haven't had any interest in this and therefore haven't been following it; but that may be because I don't understand the reasons, or the implications. Will there still be a Great Britain and will the Scots still regard themselves British (Olymppic Games etc). Will Scotland still be part of the UK? Will Scotland have its own currenc? That could be interesting, especially tourism (eg if the Scottish currency became weak people could just pop over the border for a cheap holiday, and vice versa). Could they end up on different sides in a major war (don't like the sound of that)?

 

I'm surprised no one has posted the "I'm Scottish but I'm also British..." tosh....

About as legitimate and credible as QM proclaiming he's British but also European....!

 

i would class myself as a nationalist/republican so i know what i'd be voting for so lets see how it pans out

 

How do you se it going Ste? The opinion polls provide information but they can often be deceptive.

 

Independence for the sweaties would be a disaster for the UK but absolutely catastrophic for the jocks themselves. In the longterm though you just know it will still be the British taxpayer coughing up just like we had to do during the Euro crisis! Just to highlight the point, who is paying for this referendum?

 

Muggins the taxpayer is paying for it.

The only person to benefit from independence would be Salmond himself.

I sincerely hope that when I wake up on the morning of 19th September I will still be in a country that is great and united.

 

I can honestly say that if I am ever asked where I am from I always answer Britain, never England. Like everyone I love to take the mick out of hour neighbours but I feel no enmity toward them whatsoever. I would always cheer a home nation over a European opposition in sport. Sadly I don't think the Scots, Welsh or Irish feel the same about us!

 

Stick - I'm exactly the same.

 

I agree- I feel the issue is that the nations of Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland feel governed by England rather than being an equal partner. I feel an effort to ensure a more visible equality may help build a stronger union. I think they feel the purse is held in Westminster, the laws are made in Westminster and governments elected in England. I am not sure how to change this but I think it needs addressing, but that independence is not the answer for anyone.

On a sporting issue I would love and can see no reason why there is not a UK team, It may be our best chance of success as well sadly.

 

I would vote yes but I dont vote, and I think majority will bottle it and vote no, hope im wrong.

 

“I’m English but I’m also British...”


More later when I have stopped laughing at the idea that I could have anything in common with ‘cheese-eating surrender monkeys’!!!

 

Portion of Freedom Fries for QM!

 

I note that most of the famous Jocks advocating Independence are doing so from foreign climes where they do not have a vote and do not have to live with the catastrophic consequences.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that if Alex Salmond had been able to frame this referendum as he liked, there would have been three options on the ballot: 1 – Independence; 2 – In Statu Quo; 3 – “Devo Max”. Everybody knows there would have been a landslide for the latter as they would keep the Pound, not become a bit-part player in the World and have more control in Edinburgh for his socialist agenda.

There are two ways that I could look at it:

I know a few Jocks and they are all good people and I have been to various places in Scotland over the years and the welcome has always been very hospitable, so I hope that they vote “NO” and choose to stay with us, even though there are a string of reasons, of which we English are constantly reminded (such as the Barnett Agreement and the Jock MPs voting on laws that do not affect them North of the Border), why we should get rid of them.

If the Jocks vote “YES”, then Marxist ‘Wallace’ Miliband and his loony left Labour Party are dead men walking because without their Jock MPs, they have no chance of forming a government ever; and the LibDems would go back to being irrelevant without their Jock MPs. Down side is that leaves us with Call Me Dave...

Dex, are the Freedom Fries supersized?

 

Catastrophic consequences, hmmm..... for Nigelshire maybe..

Morris dancers stuck with the Tories.

 

They are way too left wing for me in Nigelshire.

I would have nothing to do with those poofs with hankies. Take your pick to whom I refer...