Match Day Thread Chavs vs Red Devils

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by Treble, Feb 28, 2021.

  1. cytrax

    cytrax Well-Known Member

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    I remember two months ago when we were talking about this trend which I maintained that we need to be smashing our rivals to have any chance of winning the title. We were still leading the table then but it was very clear that a trend had developed whereby we were never ever going to produce against top sides specifically because of the way Ole had been setting up the team. Now 26 games gone, we have yet to register a single victory against the top sides. No energy, cowardice and always settling for cup half full. I can’t think of any of other season like this one in that regard.

    Worst mistake would be to start next season again with Ole in charge. This team won’t get better next season playing this way. Granted, we have already thrown this season away, so there’s no need for a change at this point. However, if we are serious about challenging for the league, then we won’t start the next season with Ole in charge.
     
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  2. Chief

    Chief A Northern Soul
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    There comes a time when we have to start to try and win these games, instead of trying to not lose.

    It's pretty obvious that we are settling for top four this season but, as Ole is often compared to or has Fergie used as a reference, where are we on that curve?
    Is this season job saving FA cup win season, or will we skip that and move into win a lesser European trophy season?

    We then gamely challenge for the league but fail, before finally getting over the line. At least three more seasons then!

    We should be moving onto finally getting over the line next season tbh, and preparing for that actual challenge. Instead of settling for being part of the pack.
    One more transfer window, couple more signings, no more excuses.

    Liverpool, Chelsea, Everton and probably Spurs and Arsenal will all improve next season by the way.
     
    #22
  3. glazerfodder

    glazerfodder Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone seriously expected us to be challenging for the title this season - I certainly didn't, not with some of the players in our squad. We don't have a chance of challenging without more investment in at least three key positions. Only then will we have a realistic chance. To be where we are with this squad is an achievement in itself.
     
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  4. cytrax

    cytrax Well-Known Member

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    How much more do we need to spend to get it right?

    I am utterly perplexed by the notion that transfer market is the fix to our on field problems. I am of the strong notion that creativity of a manager that is running the team far outweighs the significance of having a team full of talents. We already have talented players but have sadly stalled in development due to lack of decent coaching to make them better.

    Giving Ole more time is going to be a grave mistake.
     
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  5. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Where have I said any of that? <doh>

    That response says more about you and how you interpret what others post rather than what's being said.

    I think it's you who needs to read it again. Try doing it with an open mind. And if you still don't get it, try asking.
     
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  6. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Consider this for a moment. Bruno is arguably our most creative and influential player. He has the highest assist + goals for us iirc which also backs that up.

    In the 7 league games we've played against City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs we've scored ONE goal.

    That's not a reflection on Fernandes, nor does it mean he suddenly just turns **** in those games. What it does do is highlight perfectly a definite problem in our approach which is exposed in those big games by he impact on our most creative player and ergo on the rest of our players.

    I used to think this was because we changed our approach in those games. But that's only part of the story, and I'm beginning to think it reflects our whole approach - the disjointed defence, midfield and attack, the constant pointless sideways and backward passes, the lack of any coordinated attack, is exposed in those games which are often papered over in other games by individuals.
     
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  7. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    I honestly don't think buying more players will have any long term effect playing the disjointed way we do.
     
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  8. Christiansmith

    Christiansmith Well-Known Member

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    In a way I am quite glad I have misread what you’ve written. From my interpretation it seemed that your post could have come from one of those ABU fans and pundits we have around atm, taking any opportunities to have a go at United. And I know you are not one of those. That’s why I was shocked.

    Ok. Grateful if you could put me right on some points you made.

    what do you you mean having no system ? To me any professional team would have A system. It may be a crap system according to you and others but players however great or rubbish in any team will be set out to play A certain system. No professional team plays without any system and are top 4 in a most competitive league such as the premiership. That system could be to constantly give the ball to a key player or players but it is still a system. Put 11 best players in their positions, without any coaching, training, tactics and a viable system, they’ll get constantly beaten.

    The other point I’d like to ask is what you mean “by 4-5 players carrying the team”.To me that literally means that 6-7 players are not good enough to play for United. So who are those players and who would you replace them with? Do you want us to buy yet more players in multiple positions? To me not only Shaw has improved. Fred and McTominay have come in leap and bounds. Rashford has matured although he cannot be 100% in every match. Martial is and has been poor but I am not sure it’s the fault of coaching. AWB is not bad in his position but can improve but I don’t think he needs replacing.
     
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  9. glazerfodder

    glazerfodder Well-Known Member

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    So we keep the same players and keep trying manager after manger - lets stick with Lindelof and Martial when we can buy world class replacements - is that what this great club does or do we do what the rest of the elite football world does and spend money to strengthen in our weakest positions. We need three more players to complete the squad and then we can talk about challenging for honours.
     
    #29
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  10. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    Thanks mate, I'll try and answer as best I can. To put out a defence, a midfield whose job is to protect the defence and an attack who are there to score goals is not a system. They may all perform as units independent of each other but that's not a system, not until all three work together. I can see how Shaw links up with Rashford or Martial. I can see how Fernandes does the same and more. But the rest, I just don't see it. Greenwood, Fred, Wan Bissaka, McTominay, even Maguire and Lindelof. How do they transition play? Yes in their immediate role they perform, but beyond that there's a real lack of ideas on the pitch and that has to come from somewhere. That's also what I meant by a lack of identity as a team.

    Bear with me on this. I see the ball played out to Maguire or Lindelof and then half a dozen pointless passes which serve little or no purpose tactically or territorially. I would understand if it drew out the opposition to create space behind but that's not the case, it's because we have no positional play or idea of how to get the ball forward through the lines from defence into midfield. The most frustrating part is that on the occasions the opposition is drawn out, the ball goes out wide and maybe even into midfield where it hits the next brick wall as the midfield now don't know where to pass, which then allows the opposition to get back and the whole impetus is lost and we either try to force the ball through or pass back or get dispossessed. That to me is a symptom of players not really being given a system or wider tactical approach other than, this is your role.

    That leads on to your next question. As a result of all the above we rely on individuals - Fernandes, Rashford, Shaw to create something out of very little. Certainly not something which is created through a passage of passes where players are linking up with each other. How often do you hear any commentator say about us "that was a great team goal"? That's because they mostly aren't.

    That doesn't mean the other players are **** or not good enough to play for United btw. It just means they're good in their individual right but aren't being given tactics that enable them to link up with others going forward. So unless McTominay can make a 30 yard run with the ball or Fred can pick a 30 yard pass to Martial, or Wan Bissaka finally manages to lump a cross that finds an attacking player, or Greenwood can weave his way into the box and shoot, those players are devoid of any directions by the manager and coaching team on how to pass and move.

    I don't have much criticism of our players tbh. I think they're being limited. Martial should be sold, jury's still out on Fred, but that's about it. The rest are all good enough by and large. Buy another centreback imo and if we sell Pogba, a replacement for him, a striker most definitely. But as I said on an earlier post, we could do all that but if we still continue with the same approach on the pitch it won't have any long-term impact. The funny thing is I don't think we're far off. It's just a change in approach and the way we link defence through to attack.
     
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  11. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    No, we need players, but that in itself isn't enough. If we carry on with the same mindset and approach on the pitch we'll still fall short.
     
    #31
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  12. cytrax

    cytrax Well-Known Member

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    If we simply stopped being emotional as supporters, then we will be able to call spades exactly what it is.

    Ole is not good enough regardless of the talents on the field. End of story! He has bought extremely well, but he will continue to let the players down due to his lack as a manager.
     
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  13. Christiansmith

    Christiansmith Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this comprehensive explanation mate. I understand where you are coming from. Although I don’t agree with you, we all have valid opinions as fans. I do actually agree with you on one thing. I also think we are not far off a very good team. May be a solid CB and/or a more ruthless striker in the Cole or RVN mould.

    I think that Ole is getting a lot of the flak (some but not all of which are justified) because he has yet to have the credentials. I have read that pundits have accused him of being like a teacher. He must be doing some good as the team although far from perfect is competitive. No one could have predicted we would be where we are after an appalling start to the season. There was constant talk of inconsistency and hardly anyone gave us a chance of a CL place. If the manager was someone older or with more experience, he wouldn’t have the same criticisms. A lot of it stem from the fact that he wasn’t the selected permanent one but only a temporary stop gap when the permanent one was dismissed. Many people think he doesn’t deserve to manage such a big club like United.

    The reality as I said a few times earlier is that if we do manage to get top 4, Woodward and the Glazers will not dismiss him. Not a chance. He has fulfilled the key requirement and he will stay his contract. And do you know the shame if/when he did go? He would have learnt a lot about managing a big club at United. And he will take that experience and that CV elsewhere to another club.
     
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  14. Christiansmith

    Christiansmith Well-Known Member

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    And we all have opinions of how the tactics or systems should be. We may disagree that they are not as good as they should be but I don’t for a second believe that players are not being properly coached or they are being limited. Do we need to teach these so called elite players costing tens of millions how to pass and move? I am sure they have the training and the coaching that are required at a big club like United.

    we all have our negative views on the manager. That he is not good enough (End of story?) Maybe we could provide some balance.

    He has built team spirit more than any of these predecessors Mourinho or LVG. Who destroyed team spirit. Ostracised and belittled players in public. That ability to build and nurture team spirit is a plus and shouldn’t be taken for granted.

    He has recruited good players. Diallo, AWB, Fernandes, Telles, Maguire. He’s certainly recruited better players than LVG for example and arguably better than Mourinho too. Don’t we remember the likes of Di maria, falcao, Sanchez, to name just a few? Again a plus not to be taken for granted. He has promoted young players from the academy. Unlike some managers he is prepared to put them in the first team, like Greenwood.

    If we do finish 2nd and even in the top 4, it will be an achievement. Yes it isn’t the title but then no one expected us to win it yet. Just having the money is no guarantee as the likes of LVG and Mourinho have shown. And other big money clubs all over Europe like Barcelona Real PSG are struggling too. Not one single pundit or football expert predicted we could finish above every top club except City. It isn’t done of course but if we did, that should be a feather in the manager’s cap? If we finish above the RS (the very idea was dismissed as delusional only a few weeks ago) wouldn’t this be a notable achievement despite their implosion?


    I am not saying all these things to pretend that we are perfect. It is a bit disingenuous for some of us to say the players are good enough but the management isn’t. The players take some of the blame when we don’t score surely? Those who want the manager gone dismiss all the good things he’s done and those who support him minimise the problems. I think we would all gain more credibility if we don’t pile the blame whenever we don’t win or heap the praise whenever we win.
     
    #34
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  15. cytrax

    cytrax Well-Known Member

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    Stop overly trying to justify this with long essays, ChristianSmith. This is not a matter of when we lose or win. It’s about how far we are from first place and are close we are to 7th in points.

    For all the mega spend on great players and über greatness of the amazing team spirit that the great Ole has bestowed upon the team, we are five points above West Ham and one above Leicester. That’s the perspective that we need. We have won 14 games out of 26. Any other season, we would be closer to sixth place.

    If Liverpool and Chelsea kick back into gear, we will end up scrambling for 4th place.

    Ole is sh!!t!! End of story!
     
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  16. Christiansmith

    Christiansmith Well-Known Member

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    You’ve proved my point. Thank you for confirming that If we do get a CL place it will be an achievement <ok> same as all the big spenders


    You may rant as much as you want. Calling your manager **** and all sorts of names.If he gets 4th, he is staying and the GGs and Woodward would never sack him despite your protests. Waste of time and breath! End of story!
     
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    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  17. cytrax

    cytrax Well-Known Member

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    It’s not a protest. It’s an opinion just as you’ve shared yours.

    Of course, none of what’s said here impacts how Woodward would respond, including long essays.

    So yes, to iterate my opinion - Ole is fkin SHT! End of!
     
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  18. Christiansmith

    Christiansmith Well-Known Member

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    You keep repeating what I’ve said. I have already said that we are all entitled to our opinions. Of course I said too that Woodward would not be swayed by anything ranted here, positive or negative. My opinion is that he is not as bad as you think he is, especially compared to our previous ones. End of!
     
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  19. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    That's not really helpful tbh. Everyone is entitled to differing opinions. No point getting angry at other posters who are simply offering theirs.
     
    #39
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  20. Treble

    Treble Keyser Söze

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    I agree with some of this but the part about how ppl would judge him if he was older or more experienced or the fact he was temporary or doesn't deserve to be managing United, I don't think are true. There are a minority who will hold that view, I know there will be a few who will have written him off from the start. BUT the vast majority of United fans I would put in the category of having reservations about but backing him and wanting him to do well.

    If you see my post history, prior to this season I was backing him. My view has changed based on what's happened from this season largely although it would probably be fair to say the seeds were sown with those two semi-finals. He needed to reverse those this season as well as improve our performances on the pitch in league games and he hasn't done either for me. I dread to think how terrible the football would be if Bruno got injured.

    I agree about Ole staying if we finish Top 4. I don't see that as progress though or any indication that we'll be challenging next season. If he stays he stays, I just hope he breeds a team of winners that's all. Because at the moment as Neville and Keane have pointed out, he hasn't. That HAS to change. And that comes from the manager.
     
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