Grand Prix thread Late Russian grand prix thread

Seen some of the race , you are right . That cannot actually race , madness .

Will watch the rest tomorrow .

 

If that happens , I reckon there will be at least one person who won’t be going about him , and he’s a Liverpool fan

 

Totally agree on that point.

 

Although EMSC's comment made me chuckle, I have to say I was disappointed to see Bottas move to hand Hamilton the victory. Indeed, it reminded me of some of Schumacher's many gifts. Actually, disappointment is probably an understatement. I feel gutted for Bottas and am not at all sure Toto Wolff is sitting comfortably on this either. For me, it has left a sour taste and caused an unnecessary, deflated, subdued feeling to what should have been celebration. Hamilton didn't want it this way either.

Of course, I understand the logic of maximising points but I feel this was a political error. Schumacher and Ferrari brought the sport into disrepute for this kind of stunt, and Wolff was having a huge dilemma, knowing the call would be extremely unpopular. Strangely, comparing the Drivers' Championship standings now with earlier in the year when Hamilton handed the place back to Bottas, it seemed to me the previous occasion was more worthy of keeping Hamilton out in front, and that this occasion was – by comparison – a far more suitable opportunity to show magnanimity.

Personally, I feel today's swap was unnecessary. Hamilton has a big lead and finishing second would still have widened the gap on Vettel.

… And it has left a lot of people with rather mixed feelings.

 

Absolutely agree with this, and the only reason I can think of for doing it is if there is an impending engine change or something similar for Lewis. Otherwise why not swap round this time when he's so far ahead.

 

Vettel doesn't think it was a surprising decision. I've got to say you can't imagine Ferrari having any qualms in that situation.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/139065/vettel-defends-mercedes-strategy


Vettel said: "Well done to both of them, they played together as a team very well.

"In their defence, all the questions - I know you guys love controversy so therefore ask naughty questions to them as individuals, but I think in the position they are it's a no-brainer what they did today.

"Maybe not all the questions are justified."

 

Well, of course we know Ferrari wouldn't bat an eyelid in making such a call.

But perhaps that's just the point…

 

Mercedes have used team orders before hardly the first time is it and Ferrari do it no more then other teams.

 

I would agree, Giggs, that in their short time in F1, Red Bull have tended to emulate Ferrari in order to play them at their own game. But I also disagree with the end of your sentence, especially if we consider the longer term.

However, I'm not wanting to argue. I think I've made my point about being disappointed with Mercedes' decision on this occasion.

 

Obvious team orders were used a few times in the past but seems to be all the time nowadays by all teams. It's a bit of a kick in the ______ for us fans.

 

We never used to have this prevalence of team radio in the past, in fact I'm sure there was a stage when all but Ferrari allowed their radio to be used (or am I imagining that?)
This perhaps skews our opinion of what happens, until the mid 2000s we were often in the dark. Even when team orders were briefly banned they still happened.

 

Very good point about the Radios .

 

As the chat on this forum shows, and the drivers too, it has left a sour taste and I think ruined the day for genuine fans. Removed the spectacle.
The fact that Ferrari would do it, and have, is the issue. In tight competition if one team does then the other has to be willing too.

It is the rule of the lowest common denominator which, as in this case, ruins it. Banning it doesn't stop it. Not a great day.

 

I'm sure they tried to effectively 'ban' team orders in the past but just couldn't enforce it.

The teams clearly think the benefits (commercial?) outweigh the negative publicity that such moves make, especially when done so blatantly in public.

 

The think is that there will be a few lines written in everyday press about team orders but after next weekend they will be forgotten and history will just show Lewis first and Bottas second!
Plus how stupid would Merc look if Lewis lost championship by a point or 2 if they had not switched?
It's not right that one driver pulls over and lets other pass due to team orders but it's really the only sensible thing to do.

They did ban team orders but the teams just gave the drivers 'codes' to indicate that they should swap places.

The really dangerous thing is when manufacturers B teams are swapping places with the A team! That really will be the nail in the coffin....

 

Indeed, but what other sports do this? Football, Horse racing, Golf, Athletics, Cycling? Not so much corporate money. Technology today would enable a technical verification in most cases. I think a penalty could be applied. It just isn't sport. OK, you could still fudge it with a slightly lower spec car for number 2 but then you risk second place. Is it not just as bad a drugs?

 

The single biggest issues is that the result is being affected.

If someone had 50k on bottas to win at whatever odds and they swap.. do you get sued?

IMO its better for all to know.. ok bottas is clearly no 2 don't bother ever betting on him.

But then... someone will then say right hamilton is clearly no 1 in best car but they didn't swap i am angry as i bet on hamilton.

Its just a minefield.


Its clear merc want to win two championships and a 1/2 result in the right order has effectively assured them of doing it.

IMO internal team orders are no issue for me as you've two cars in the race they should be allowed do things like draft each other, swap places, slow up other cars, block etc etc.

Nobody was whinging too much when bottas was used as a rear gunner to block vettel were they? its the same thing to my mind.

 

"Valtteri, we're worried about the rear left, avoid curbs and lift off early through T12".

"Valtteri, the brakes are overheating, essential you slow down now"

"Valtteri the engine is showing worrying signs in the telemetry, switch to mode 4 for 5 laps in order to finish the race."

All could be genuine, all could be code. If you want to determine which is which, you're going to have to go through stacks of telemetry post-race, then change the results hours later. You can't police team orders effectively without detriment to the sport in another fashion.

Team orders are impossible to avoid unfortunately.

 

If you have them explaining that it won't be switched and you were switched due to lewis blister live on air then i doubt there's need for code.