Hell's bells! I have read Mein Kampf too. Unambiguous. Hitler only turned on those parts of the church that were doing the humanistic thing of protecting those regardless of race, colour or creed. Only one of Hitler's henchmen was excommunicated from the catholic church and that was for marrying a divorced protestant woman.
Rather a pity that Sam Harris doesn't spen more time working on his own tolerance. Unfortunately the tone of many militant atheists such as Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris works as a conersation ender rather than a conversation starter. I feel, with them, I am being battered by a smug certainty which assumes there can be no such thing as an intelligent believer. Many people are on a spiritual search which is open for new experiences, and where doubt is always, potentially, there - in which the journey is more important than the arrival. If the militant atheist's only goal in life is to spoil other people's journeys rather than getting on with their own lives then I feel sorry for them.
I was talking about religious tolerance only - as it were, tolerance by the religious. In the case of the Koran it says on almost innumerable occasions ..."death to the unbeliever" and a significant minority take that literally to mean another persons life in this life. I know full well hat in their eyes I am an infidel at best and as such I do not count - I am worthless, untermensch as the Nazi's would have it and no better off: in Saudi I would be a terrorist, FFS. The problem is now that people are tolerating the intolerable. Events all over Europe, even those in the likes of Rochdale and so on are down to scriptural interpretation. It is disgusting and such behaviour has no place in a civilised society and not only that, we have seen it all before. Women worth half a man; sex slaves and so on. I tolerate the religious generally speaking. I have to as a professional man and I put my opinions as to whichever religion they happen to be to one side... I have worked on church and mosque construction projects and the got my full and undivided best professional attention. I draw the line at joining in prayers but I maintain a respectful silence as is right and proper. The person in the street peddling religious woo as I walk by will get firm, polite but short thrift from me.
Actually Mussolini requested of the Pope that he excommunicate Hitler - however the RC church was forced to keep a semblance of neutrality, and condemned all violence by both sides. It was a precarious balancing act in which the church was only able to discretely help some of the victims of the Nazis, through preserving an outward neutrality.
Hitchens assertive, and yes, confrontational and abrasive, attitudes to religion are the stuff of legend. It is a tragedy that he is no longer here to add his voice to the ugliness in the world today. If you think Sam Harris is a militant atheist then you have Sam Harris all wrong. The trouble is even the likes of Chomsky and any blogger writing for the likes of salon seem to wilfully misunderstand him. The ignorance is astonishing. Harris bends over backwards for constructive dialogue and discussion (his discussions with former muslim terrorist Maajid Nawaz a case in point) but all too often he is wilfully and deliberately misrepresented, particularly by the likes of William Lane Craig and Reza Aslan. A bunch of liars.
Maybe we should change the work 'tolerance', like religious tolerance, racial tolerance etc. and use another word. I mean market gardens advertise their plants by saying this or that plant is mildew tolerant, or European pear rust tolerant and so on. As if it describes something I don't like and just have to put up with - rather than celebrating the positive aspects of 'variety', I mean the World must be a richer place through having lots of different cultures, religions, languages etc.
Says a lot about the catholic church when they still haven't done so... that institution has so much blood on its hands it will not wash.
I confess now that I am a strong unbeliever in a personal god in that I cannot reconcile a god who could "rule over" a world such as this. That of course leaves open a huge other variety of beliefs as well as the fact that some people will be able to reconcile a god that cares about humanity with this world. More though is the fact that an intolerant unbeliever is in the invidious position of being intolerant towards other people who have belief and yet cannot admit their own beliefs. In the final analysis we all believe in something - we tend to believe we exist as we see us. Yet in fact everything could be illusory. The only one positive thing you can actually know is that something inside you - and you alone - exists. That something could in fact be inventing absolutely everything else - your own body included as well as the entire universe. Fanciful? Perhaps but actually rather simpler than what does exist. If the actual universe consisted of one "mind" or "spirit" and nothing else then everything you think you see is fantasy. Even that fails to give an answer to how anything got here so does not help any quest.
I agree that "tolerance" is a bit arrogant. Who are we to "tolerate"others and their beliefs. We all have as much right to our beliefs as anyone else.
It was actually true, there was a strong suspicion on Mussolini's side, and he was also not convinced by Hitler's racial policies. I don't know of Hitler ever got to know about this request.
I thought that Islam taught coexistence with other religions from the beginning. The only thing I thought that was a no-no was a Muslim who abandoned the faith? Is that wrong? They may consider you lesser than them but to be honest many groups, not just religious, do that. The Saudis permit others to work there. I do not think anyone does tolerate events such as those in Rochdale do they? People believe these are people acting not in accord with their religion and condemn them for it. All are loathsome and I certainly do not tolerate it. I cannot understand how civilised people can treat others as lesser beings. You behave in a sensible manner then.
Unfortunately you are right on this one Fez. For hundreds of years during the middle ages artists who depicted religious themes (which meant all artists in those days) very often did so depicting Jews drinking the blood of Christian babies, and the Gypsies making the nails to crucify Jesus. Some of these can still be seen in Polish and Ukrainian churches. The holocaust was really a culmination of about 700 years of history.
Leo I'll get back to you over the weekend. A measured response is appropriate and I can't do that on a mobile!
I think that people are people first and then their beliefs simply strengthen whatever is the dominant driving force of their own personality. It is the easiest thing in the world to convert a person from one 'badge' to another, whether religious or political. All I have to do is to get someone to blame the bosses rather than blame the blacks and I have turned someone from a Nazi to a Communist - but they are still prats whatever the label - they have substituted the racial revolution with the proletarian revolution. The same is true of religion - many of those who started wars in the name of religion in the past, would have done so for other reasons if the religion had not been there. Intelligent people (of whatever persuasion) are always ready to place their own beliefs in doubt - to question them - stupid people spend their time questioning other people's beliefs. I am personally not interested in converting anyone, from one badge to the other - because they will bring their own personal weaknesses with them. Real conversion is about moving from a reliance on the 'outer' world to the 'inner' - call it meditation if you like, moving into an inner world where no external teacher is there. The person who wants to 'convert' someone else is really insecure in their own beliefs and wants to strengthen them through being around others who believe the same. I cannot take eg. militant atheists seriously, when their only apparent goal in life is to ridicule the belief systems of others, the same is true the other way around.
