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Weekend Debate

Discussion in 'Leeds United' started by Doc, Jul 15, 2022.

  1. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    Before we start, things that wont happen
    1. Juan Mata to Leeds
    2. Jack Harrison to Newcastle for £20m

    Well the Brisbane Roar game started well fizzled towards half time and we allowed them a goal due to our lax defending. Second half got bitty no linked up play and it ended as a disappointment, except it was a win and for fitness.

    However some things are going to be good. Roca and Adams will be great together, Sinisttera is going to score goals. Gelhardt going to improve again, Klaesson will hold down the reserve keeper spot, Koch and Llorente will be our CB pairing but Leif Davies will not be our LB, Kristensen will be our RB but even though Drameh did ok he may end up being sold as Davies will be. Aaronson going to be good but Rodrigo in and out again, but maybe the most impressive again was Darko Gybri and Forshaw. Harrison will never be a good option as LB and was worse than Firpo on a bad day. What about Dan James, where is he going to play? Bamford got half hour and came close with a header but never really got into it. Post match Bamford said he is way behind the other lads on fitness…. Why? He was fit for the last match of the season but got covid or would have played. Why is he so far behind, has he still not recovered from the injury or has he been injured proposing to his fiancé?

    These better players will probably start to be selected together as a team over the next two ozzy games so should come back as a nearly gelled unit. But so far so so for me, can see some of what Marsch is trying to do so hope it clicks soon. However not sure what Marsch is trying to do with his full backs. Kristensen looked like a great defender and RWB, but Harrison was ok going forward but crap defending and I never really saw Davies in defence as he was like a right winger? We conceded easily and Kristensen was asleep but in fairness Koch was good and Llorente was also good when he came on but Struijk was suspect.

    Need a LB get it done as well as a striker



    The Sonny Perkins debacle will be resolved one way or the other in the next few days and in some respects I hope he goes to Villa. He obviously fancies himself as a top striker, nothing wrong with that. However he left WHU because he wasn't being used enough and he felt he should have played more. He also felt he deserved first team wages.This is part of what he had to say in an interview this week: Despite the poor performances of Michail Antonio for much of the second half of the campaign and Moyes’s lack of options, Perkins was barely used despite a couple of promising cameos – memorably almost scoring with a header in the Europa League during a 2-0 win at Rapid Wien. so for me this is a kid who thinks he should be a first team player and get game time. For that to happen he would need to fight against Gelhardt who had exactly the same problem as Perkins but has more grace, and if Leeds do buy Arnuad Kalimuendo who is also 20yo we will see some problems. For me Kalimuendo gets the nod as he is an established striker with 2 seasons in French Prem, and a proven scorer. Gelhardt would be 3rd choice behind him and Perkins 4th. Makes little sense especially when we also have Mateo Joseph Fernandez who is going to have a great season for the U21s. Since he got his first start he is averaging a goal per game. I may be wrong but where would Perkins fit?

    While we await the arrival of our new striker, we should look at a couple of names we are supposed to be trying to get. Kalimuendo of course, Castellanos over at NYC who is the golden boot boy, CDK a precocious talent who seems to prefer AC Milan and how about this one out of left field, Nicolas Pepe’ a little quote I picked up:

    On 21 June 2017, Pépé signed a five-year deal with Lille, for a maximum transfer fee of €10 million,[15] after being signed by head coach Marcelo Bielsa who had scouted the player by watching footage of every Ligue 1 game he had played in for Angers, before scouting him in person.[16][17] Pépé described Bielsa as "special" and a "great coach".[18] He started the season playing as a striker after being converted into playing the position under Bielsa? He scored goals for fun and in his second season with Lille he was only beaten to the golden boot by Kylian Mbappe. So the big question is why do Arsenal want him as a winger when Bielsa converted him to a striker. Bielsa converted Phillips and that turned out well, so why not?
     
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  2. NostradEmus

    NostradEmus Firpo is Shit

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    I see this season as Gelhardts big breakthrough. He will be the star of the show this year.

    I'd be looking at a striker to play the Bamford role more than the Gelhardt role.
     
    #2
  3. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    Exactly this. The new striker needs to be good enough to have Bamford worried. Kalimuendo is that striker for me as he haspace and power and creates goals for team mates as well as a great shots/goal ratio. He would also be a great mentor and target for Joffy ss almost same age
     
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  4. ellandback

    ellandback Well-Known Member
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    Tyler Roberts injured for QPR

    R’s boss Michael Beale said: “It’s a minor issue – nothing overly concerning. We’re just waiting for the scan results.”
     
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  5. stonkin

    stonkin Well-Known Member

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    <doh>
     
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  6. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    Raphinha deal complete with £50m deposited in the Leeds account with another £5m in bonuses to come next year. Best way to deal with Barcelona is get the cash up front. Well done Orta in refusing to sell until cash up front agreed
     
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  7. NostradEmus

    NostradEmus Firpo is Shit

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    Guess it's time to send Orta shopping again.
     
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  8. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    Surprised nobody ripped into me yet about the Pepe story? Expecting to get a new one ripped <laugh>
     
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  9. NostradEmus

    NostradEmus Firpo is Shit

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    Sorry bud. Pepe is never gonna happen due to wages. Kinda dismissed it out of hand. <laugh>


    Nice try though.
     
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  10. Jammy 07

    Jammy 07 Well-Known Member

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    Great weekender as usual Doc so many thanks.

    Another talking point is the enigma that is Rodrigo as in the Marsche system his role is pivotal. If Rodders plays well we'll look a very decent team going forward but the reverse is that when he's not able to link the play we're so vunerable to the counter attack. For me he needs to understand the importance of either the simple pass to keep possession or playing the ball in behind or wide for a runner such as Dan James and cut out the flicks and tippy tappy stuff.

    Truthfully when Jesse came in it seemed to revitalise him as a player and he took up some great positions to get on the ball but so far his creative play hasn't been good enough.

    Liked the look of Aaronson yesterday and he definitely could be the goalscoring midfielder we've been crying out for.
     
    #10

  11. NostradEmus

    NostradEmus Firpo is Shit

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    Eriksen signs for scum.

    That might put Brentford in big trouble. They were in free fall before Eriksen joined.
     
    #11
  12. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    Forget to mention Rodrigo in a rply to your earlier post. I thought he was too good for his team mates who were struggling to break their defence down doing over complicated tippy tappy. Rodrigo was looking great in fairness to him but a couple of his passes went astray because the guy receiving it never expected it. I think that was down to his quality and vision and our collective not sure what to do…
     
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  13. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    Apparently lots of fees have been covered by Barcelona too

     
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  14. Jammy 07

    Jammy 07 Well-Known Member

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    Now Raphinha has departed the hope is that Rodrigo becomes the player he should be. Too often he looked to pass to his Brazilian mate rather than choosing a better and usually easier option. As I said in the last post his ability to get on the ball is second to none but he's just been too damn wasteful in possession.

    Jesse seems to really rate him so he must be right up there in training.
     
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  15. ellandback

    ellandback Well-Known Member
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    The Raphinha transfer saga – from start to finish

    The plane that carried Leeds United’s squad away on their pre-season tour of Australia last Sunday took off with one seat vacant. A ticket had been booked for Raphinha to fly but the winger was conspicuously absent, at home in the Yorkshire city in body and somewhere else entirely in spirit.

    But this was not, despite appearances, a classic case of a player being on strike.

    The Brazilian stayed behind with Leeds’ permission, a common-sense decision indicating that discussions about his future were coming to a head. Barcelona’s interest in him was getting serious at last. There was no point in Raphinha being halfway around the world as a deal was agreed, and even less point in risking him in any of Leeds’ three friendlies Down Under.

    Everybody knew how this saga ought to end and, as both Leeds and Raphinha saw it, the dance had gone on for long enough.

    “There’s urgency from his end to come up with a solution,” said Leeds head coach Jesse Marsch after a pre-season win over Championship side Blackpool in York a week ago, and in many ways, the club felt the same.

    Raphinha had trained earlier that day but did not take part in the Blackpool game and was not in the stadium to watch it either. Marsch hinted strongly that the winger would miss the Australia trip too, and it always felt that the club’s summer tour would be a line in the sand.

    If Raphinha got on that plane, he was still in the picture, at least for the time being. If he remained in England then it was clear that, to all intents and purposes, the 25-year-old was gone. And in agreeing with him that he should not travel, Leeds invited Barcelona to do what they had been talking about doing since February and pay the going rate for the most valuable player at Elland Road.

    Chelsea had already offered £50million ($59.3m) up front, with very achievable add-ons worth around £5m. The numbers were big — big enough for Leeds. With Raphinha intent on moving on, the last thing the club wanted was for him to be injured in a match against, with all due respect, Brisbane Roar.

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    Finally, today (Friday), a deal with Barcelona went through.

    At a stroke, Raphinha has smashed the biggest fee ever earned by Leeds, eclipsing the £42million ($49.9m) they received from champions Manchester City for England midfielder Kalvin Phillips two weeks ago.

    Barcelona, despite the financial web they are caught up in, have landed the target they coveted more than any other in this window. Raphinha got the move he craved, the move he was holding out for, and through no end of twists and turns, the saga around him has reached the finishing line.

    Negotiations were so precarious and protracted that even as the winger was putting on a shirt and tie ahead of a press conference this afternoon, Leeds were still waiting for Barcelona’s signature on the final pieces of paperwork.

    This is the inside story of one of the summer’s most complex transfers, and the ever-changing fight to seal it.

    A good starting point in this tale, especially for those unfamiliar with the situation, is an explanation for why Leeds were willing to sell Raphinha in the first place.

    In tandem with Phillips’ move to the Etihad, the club have parted company with their two most valuable players in the space of 11 days, accruing close to £100million ($118.7m) but sacrificing considerable amounts of talent in the process.

    Phillips and Raphinha were in similar situations insofar as their contracts at Elland Road were due to end in the summer of 2024.

    In both cases, Leeds were faced with a dilemma: either find a way to extend those deals or accept that this was the window in which to cash in, to avoid their respective values depreciating badly over the next 12 months.

    It made a difference that Phillips and Raphinha wanted to leave and had specific moves in mind — Phillips to City and Raphinha to Barcelona. For Leeds, the impact of incoming fees on their own summer recruitment began to outweigh the benefit of retaining two footballers who saw themselves playing elsewhere in 2022-23.

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    Leeds had tried to extend Raphinha’s contract before Christmas, making positive steps towards an agreement with his agent, Deco.

    In spite of his flair and his eye-catching impact in the Premier League, the winger was on a comparatively modest salary after a £17 million move from French club Rennes late in the summer 2020 window. The fee that brought him to England was not extortionate and neither were his wage demands. He was nothing like the highest earner at Elland Road, making an increase fair and affordable.

    The only sticking point was the negotiation of a buy-out clause, though as recently as the end of the January transfer window, Leeds felt quietly confident they would find common ground on that front with Deco. Naturally, the club wanted any release clause to be as high as possible to protect their interests. Raphinha was keen to ensure that any buy-out figure was low enough to give interested clubs a realistic chance of paying it.

    Before long, January became February and from a position where Leeds were hopeful of a resolution, talks went cold.

    There was more than one reason for this.

    Around the same time, Barcelona’s interest in him strengthened. It was abundantly obvious that Raphinha was someone they wanted to sign. Some close to him say the basis of an agreement over personal terms with Barcelona was effectively in place at that early stage, owing to former Barcelona player Deco’s close links with Camp Nou.

    Closer to home, Leeds’ Premier League season began to wobble badly. Marcelo Bielsa, their highly respected head coach, was sacked on February 26 with results deteriorating. The relationship between Bielsa and Raphinha had taken a hit after the winger was substituted at half-time of a 3-0 defeat at Everton two weeks earlier, a decision he took badly.

    By April, relegation was a real possibility and the idea of extending Raphinha’s deal immediately was no longer feasible.

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    While his contract featured no buy-out provision if Leeds were in the Premier League, it did include a release clause in the event of relegation. Had they gone down last season, clubs would have been able to pick Raphinha up for as little as £25million.

    It is no coincidence that Barcelona actively opened channels of communication with Leeds in the final month of the season, a point where they looked increasingly likely to drop back into the EFL just two years after returning to the top flight having spent 16 of them in the lower-divisions wilderness.

    Barcelona are understood to have discussed paying slightly more than Raphinha’s buy-out fee, some £30m-£35m, which was considerably lower than his true value and much easier for them to finance. But the Brazilian scored on the last day of the season at Brentford, Leeds stayed up by the skin of their teeth and the pressure to compromise in negotiations disappeared. The relegation exit clause no longer gave Barcelona leverage.

    The Catalan club’s focus on Raphinha was fuelled by his transparent desire to play for them. He has made no secret of the fact that, of all the options open to him, this was the one he would dig his heels into secure.

    For Barcelona, Raphinha was a very obvious target. With Ousmane Dembele out of contract at Camp Nou and amid uncertainty over whether the France international would renew his deal, plans to replace him were crucial. Barcelona persisted in going after Raphinha, despite major doubts about how they would find the money to actually pay for him. Last-day Premier League survival meant Leeds were in a position to start a bidding war.

    One club ruled out of the running early on were Manchester United.

    While the Old Trafford side had Raphinha on their wish-list, Leeds had no interest in selling to such a fierce rival and they knew the Brazilian would not demand that move.

    In general, they were happy with his conduct. At no point did he down tools or submit a transfer request.

    Marsch said last week that Raphinha had shown “such a good attitude” in a period which “hasn’t been an easy time for him”. It was simply apparent to Leeds that if Barcelona were to stump up the right amount of cash, Raphinha would not then turn them down.

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    Tottenham were another side to home in on Raphinha, then withdraw from the race. They are believed to have made a player-plus-cash proposal involving an individual in their squad who Leeds had no interest in acquiring. Leeds made it clear that at that stage they would only consider a straight sale. They had their own specific targets in mind, including Charles De Ketelaere of Belgium’s Club Bruges.

    There were other factors involved, too.

    People at Leeds suspected Raphinha might not be keen on joining Spurs because he feared their head coach Antonio Conte might play him as a wing-back, a role he did not feel comfortable with. Tottenham were also monitoring Richarlison at Everton and it was always going to be a case of one or the other. They opted for Richarlison, paying £60million ($71.1m) to secure Raphinha’s Brazil team-mate.

    In the meantime, Arsenal had made moves of their own and for a while Leeds expected Raphinha’s future to come down to a fight between the two north London clubs.

    Chelsea submitted an initial inquiry too, but all the uncertainty before and immediately after the west London club’s takeover by Todd Boehly and Clearlake Capital meant it was hard to know how serious their interest would prove to be.

    Arsenal went into the bidding with a lot of confidence. They made Raphinha a priority because they classed him as someone who could play for them on either flank, providing serious quality and a stellar work-rate off the ball. Bielsa is said to have given a glowing reference about him, extolling Raphinha’s virtues.

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    Arsenal knew Raphinha’s preference was Barcelona but reasoned the La Liga giants’ economic situation presented them with an opportunity. Conversations held between technical director Edu and Deco went positively, encouraging Arsenal to table a bid.

    On the evening of June 21, Arsenal emailed an opening offer worth £35million ($41.9m). It fell well below the asking price and Leeds, bemused by such a valuation, rejected it the following day. Arsenal reassured Leeds they would return with another bid and a meeting was scheduled for June 28.

    But as the time for those talks neared, Chelsea stepped up.

    They could offer something Arsenal couldn’t — Champions League football next season. Plus they had Brazil captain Thiago Silva, someone Raphinha is close to and admires, attempting to convince him to join the Stamford Bridge ranks. Beyond that, there was Deco’s past connection with Chelsea — he had fond memories of playing for them between 2008-10.

    With Chelsea head coach Thomas Tuchel planning to employ him on one flank and this week’s signing Raheem Sterling on the other, there was a chance for Raphinha to be part of an exciting, revamped attack in west London. Chelsea’s reputation as serial trophy winners — no English club has won more trophies than them over the last 19 years — seemed to put them at the front of the queue.

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    Leeds considered a transfer to Chelsea as a good outcome. It worked for them in a number of respects, not least because the club’s new owners were willing to pay most, if not all, of the initial fee for Raphinha up front. A switch to Chelsea would allow them to use Raphinha as an example to future signings by effectively saying, “We helped Raphinha get into the Brazil team and the Champions League. You’ll be next.”

    De Ketelaere could be courted in that way, for example. The winger Leeds brought in to replace Raphinha, Luis Sinisterra, is much the same age and cost roughly the same as Raphinha did two years ago. His signing from Rennes is a success story to the tune of £40million ($47.4m) in profit.

    That meeting with Arsenal on June 28 went ahead as planned but there was no breakthrough.

    Later that evening, The Athletic broke the news that Chelsea were willing to pay in excess of £55million ($65.2m) and looked like favourites to snatch Raphinha’s signature. The reigning world champions felt certain that if Raphinha could be convinced to join another English team, it was going to be them. Next morning, sources at Arsenal were admitting that a switch to the Emirates did not look likely.

    The biggest obstacle to Chelsea completing formalities were Barcelona.

    Chelsea spoke about arranging a medical but at no stage did Raphinha undergo one with them. To Chelsea’s frustration, their offer was left to dangle. On the same day their bid landed with Leeds, Deco was pictured meeting Barcelona officials with fresh indications that the player was angling for Camp Nou instead.

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    (Photo: Robbie Jay Barratt – AMA/Getty Images)
    The challenge for Barcelona, and an extreme one at that, was matching Chelsea’s bid.

    Their finances were so horrendous and their La Liga wage cap so strict that the board acted to raise liquid funds by selling off a percentage of their future broadcast revenue, mortgaging themselves to keep their recruitment ticking over.

    There was the jarring juxtaposition of the club asking Frenkie de Jong to take a large cut in wages while at the same time beating a path in the direction of Raphinha and wantaway Bayern Munich striker Robert Lewandowski. The question throughout European football was the same: How was any of this working?

    Leeds made it clear from the outset that they would not back down on terms or valuation, declining attempts by Barcelona to discuss getting paid in installments. This was Barcelona’s way of mitigating their cash flow problems, but not a scenario that worked for Leeds.

    Persistence was necessary on both sides, though, because Raphinha was refusing to saying yes to Chelsea, the only acceptable proposal on the table. For a long time, Leeds and Barcelona stood at an impasse. Then, as Raphinha rejoined pre-season training, concessions offered by Barcelona made Leeds think that a deal was genuinely possible. Raphinha was stood down from the pre-season tour to Australia. The squad departed without him, expecting him to be gone by the time they returned.

    Last weekend, decisive progress was made.

    It did not quite get the deal to the point of completion though, and even as late as Tuesday morning, Leeds were having to stand their ground by insisting Barcelona hit a certain price and pay the initial fee up front. There were concerns at Elland Road about how and when the Spanish side would be able to register Raphinha — but provided the money dropped into their account, that would not be Leeds’ problem.

    Remarkably, Barcelona suggested more than once that in a worst-case scenario, they could wait until January to finalise his registration, an idea Leeds dismissed out of hand.

    Deco is understood to have saved Leeds a seven-figure sum by waiving an agency fee — something he was reluctant to do had the transfer involved Chelsea or any club other than Barcelona. A penalty clause was inserted into the contract, committing Barcelona to forfeiting an additional €10million (£8.5m, $10.1m) if they failed to meet a fixed payment date, and an agreement in principle was struck.

    By Tuesday evening, Raphinha had permission to travel for a medical and sign his contract. Barcelona were unperturbed by the many millions of pounds which have to come off their wage bill before they could confirm his registration with La Liga and began posting about him on their Twitter accounts.

    But right until the end, the transaction was fraught.

    A flurry of messages arrived from Spain overnight on Thursday, almost with the urgency of a team trying to beat the transfer deadline. This morning, Barcelona announced a schedule for unveiling Raphinha, including the public signing of his contract at 1pm UK time. Leeds were unaware of those plans, only reading about them online. Certain details were yet to be ironed out. The legalities were short of being watertight.

    In Barcelona, they were treating it as a done deal, but in Leeds, they refused to blink until every single box was ticked, unwilling to risk any loopholes.

    A press conference had been scheduled by Barcelona and only as Raphinha was videoed tying his tie in preparation did his new club ratify the contract with Leeds. To the relief of everyone, the wrangling was over.

    Two models of recruitment have underpinned the Raphinha sale.

    Barcelona, by hook or by crook, have found a way to keep themselves in the market for players with his potential and reputation. Leeds have made a large profit on him in two years and, to judge by their signings this summer, are doubling down on their strategy of looking for similar recruits with untapped potential, time on their side and, all being well, significant resale value.

    In truth, Leeds made peace with the idea of Raphinha’s departure some time ago, accepting the reality of his dramatic rise.

    There was no point in forcing him onto a plane to Australia when the only flight he wanted this summer was one direct to Catalonia.
     
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  16. Doc

    Doc Well-Known Member

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    Wonder just how many times a football club is shafted because he refuses to move to the highest bidder. We know Kalvin Phillips refused WHU, Man Utd and at least one more club as he only wanted Man City. Raphinha refused Chelsea, Special K refusing Leeds for a smaller offer from Milan and now this, seems bigger clubs win all the time
     
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  17. ellandback

    ellandback Well-Known Member
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    Man U have signed Christian Eriksen
     
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  18. ellandback

    ellandback Well-Known Member
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  19. wakeybreakyheart

    wakeybreakyheart Well-Known Member

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    He was just as bad v brisbane
     
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  20. wakeybreakyheart

    wakeybreakyheart Well-Known Member

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    Who?
     
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