WTF happened to Pochettino?

I'm sure all the german fans are sick of having 4 stars on their national team shirt whilst the dutch fans are happy having none

 

You seem to have something against common sense

As PowerSpurs said a few posts above, winning trophies soon loses its lustre if there's no legacy left behind, with the obvious example being Man Utd's slow decline ever since Alex Ferguson departed as he left absolutely no legacy and the club are having to hire ex-players in a desperate bid to keep the customers fans onside...and that's hardly working out for them right now, is it?

Or maybe we should look at Blackburn, as we all remember the legacy of their title win...namely **** all, because after winning the title their squad had the useful components snaffled up (most obviously Shearer and Batty) and they drifted down the table until they were relegated within four years of winning the league, and since then have drifted between making up the numbers in the Premier League to a season in League One, all because the only thing sustaining them when they won the league was Jack Walker's chequebook and once that was gone they rapidly became financially unsustainable to the point where a shocking amount of their income (70% IIRC) was being spent on wages - and those weren't wages for title winners like Shearer, Sutton or Batty, those were wages to try and keep Bentley, Duff and Dunn at a club hovering around midtable, all because the club's infrastructure was straight out of the 1960s as their only sources of income were a local benefactor running the club and people coming through the turnstiles, the latter being particularly problematic because they were playing in front of anything between 5000 and 10,000 empty seats even when they were on course for winning the league

So this idea that winning is the only thing that matters is, quite simply, bollocks - and if you want more evidence of this, I'll ask you a simple question: did we keep hold of Dimitar Berbatov and Robbie Keane after winning the Season Killer Cup in 2008, or did the two of them bugger off for bigger salaries that summer? And no, I won't accept "But Levy..." as an answer

 

SAF didn’t leave a legacy?

Bill Nic - our greatest ever manager didn’t either?

 

Strongly disagree with this. Fergie's legacy was not the guarantee of endless trophies, but it did establish United as the biggest and wealthiest brand in world football. His enduring legacy is precisely the fact that despite being crap for years now, they still have the finances and clout to attract big names to the club. Same for Bill Nic. I wasn't alive at the time but the impression I got from my dad and grandpa was that the double winning team made history precisely by establishing a legacy: here is a huge club with huge aspirations playing beautiful football. That legacy never went away. Through relegation, through near insolvency, through all the nonsense of the 90's, it never went away. It was that legacy that convinced me to ignore every United, Arsenal and Liverpool supporting friend in the playground and stick with Spurs.

As Arsenal have painfully discovered in recent years, big stadiums and regular CL income means squat if you don't do anything with it. And now, with the gift of hindsight, we can see that from 2007 onwards, Arsenal have more or less existed on the vapour of Wenger's early years. The all-conquering, trophy winning sides that played unreal football and did all of it without a shiny stadium and without regular CL income. That was Arsenal's true legacy in the PL era, and it is only further proof of my point that as late as 2016, those last remaining fumes were still enough to give them the clout and gravitas to attract big names and target major trophies. Arsenal have now, finally, run out of legacy. And so they are struggling desperately. I would argue that United, unless they fix things very soon, are heading in the same direction.

 

His legacy and their legacy aren't necessarily the same thing, though I disagree about him not leaving them with one, of course.
The failure of others to build around him shouldn't reflect on what he's achieved, both at Utd and Aberdeen.
You wouldn't credit Pochettino for our stadium or infrastructure, so why would the opposite be true if it's not there?

 

Not sure i understand this but i can only parrot what c kane has said.

He left united as the biggest club in england (and arguably still are after 6 years of outright failure which is more of woodwards fault - big at least economically).

They are still the club with the most pls and the media still love to report on them because of what he has done.

 

PowerSpur thinks Fergie left no legacy at United

and you seem to think winning trophies gets in the way of our club running smoothly....unbelievable stuff.

Let’s see if we win the FA Cup...then I will come and ask you if it got in the way of our progress in the grand scheme.

You’re post reeks of paranoid bullshit that seems to have infested many Spurs fans under Levy’s regime.

If we are not set up to win the odd trophy without ****ting our financial pants then we need to pack up and stick to NFL

 

And bill nic

 

Man Utd falling apart from the moment he left says he didn't leave a legacy

Think of it in terms of Formula One: you can build a car that will go around the track ten seconds faster than everyone else but will fall apart the second it crosses the finish line, or you can build a car that could consistently go around the track .2 of a second faster than everyone else the entire season, which would you want in your team?

The issue is so many people only look at the first option and think that's the measuring stick when it's patently unsustainable

 

No offence but you are wrong.

So if spurs don't finish top 4 or win anything in the next few seasons (considering united have won trophies) then poches legacy is zero as finances don't count? (On the basis the team is too **** to win anything)

 

I'm agreeing with you.
Ferguson's success wasn't mimicked by those in other roles at the club.
That has no bearing on his legacy, in my opinion.

They aren't doing anywhere near as well at the moment, but a lot of that is down to over-reliance on the man himself.
He resurrected and rejuvenated their squad so many times that they assumed it would go on forever and made no plans for his absence.
They should've been building for a future without him. Probably doesn't help that their current owners are utter parasites though, to be fair.

 

No it doesn't. It means that the contingency plan in place for the moment of his departure was flawed from the outset, and ironically Fergie himself has to shoulder a huge amount of the blame for this. Handpicking Moyes as 'the Chosen One' when the club literally had the pickings of any manager in world football was a huge miscalculation and one that set them back years in the space of months. Second to this was the fact that Fergie built his final squad for short term success. It was ageing and in urgent need of repair, but Fergie neglected this because he was desperate to go out with a bang, determined not to see City retain their title on his watch.

Had these decisions been different, or even if one of them had been better thought through, I doubt we'd be having this conversation about them as things would have panned out rather differently.

 

Let's address your response one point after another, shall we?

1.) Titles won by Man Utd after Ferguson left: 0
Seasons without Champions League football since Ferguson left: 4 (of a possible 6)

I'd say that he failed to leave a legacy considering the team's form plummeted almost as soon as he left the club, wouldn't you? That's exactly the point I was making about Formula One: he got the car across the line and then it fell apart, and they still haven't put it back together again

2.) Winning trophies does get in the way of a club running smoothly if a club does not have the financial infrastructure to operate on that level, which is why I went into some detail about Blackburn Rovers - a club who you apparently feel are more successful than us because they won the Premier League...once, before becoming a basket case for the next 25 years

3.) Just a reminder, but Arsenal winning the FA Cup back in 2017 failed to keep Alexis Sanchez, Theo Walcott, Aaron Ramsey, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, Olivier Giroud or Francis Coquelin at the club - and that's just from the matchday squad. It's almost as if actual footballers don't give a **** about winning domestic cups...

4.) I told you that "But Levy..." isn't a valid response, because it simply isn't one for the reasons outlined in my previous post, and yet there you go carping "But Leveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey..." because you can't help yourself. Oh, FYI, if you want an example of "paranoid bullshit" maybe look at the dunce who thinks that seeing the bigger picture is the exact same as hating winning football and expects to have their posts taken seriously

5.) Do you really not understand that, for a club to consistently chase trophies, it needs a consistent level of investment in order for that to be sustainable? That's the reason why Blackburn are in the ****ter, because they didn't have a consistent level of investment coupled with their antiquated (even 25 years ago) business model that meant that winning the league was the end of the journey rather than the first step of the beginning of a new one and that's when they fell apart, while the likes of Man Utd and Arsenal were able to have that consistent level of investment because they were set up to do so - and the consistent qualification for the Champions League did a hell of a lot more for that than a couple of FA Cup wins ever would, especially after the G14 made sure they were well taken care of by effectively making the Champions League a closed shop for their members and everyone else could get stuffed.

5a.) If nothing else demonstrates your lack of anything that resembles a clue it's you completely missing the point about Champions League participation: Man Utd and Arsenal had a decade's head start on CL qualification over us, with Chelsea and Liverpool not far behind them, so while they were raking in cash for their participation - and don't forget, the team who finishes bottom of their CL group make more money than the team that reaches the Europa League final, as Fulham and Middlesbrough will both attest - so of course we aren't on the same financial footing as them, and that's before bringing Russian or Emirati billions into the equation, because the CL was set up to keep the rich within it's warm, monied bosom and the poor watching highlights on Sky - and the fact that we're actually qualifying for that competition on a reasonably consistent basis while G14 members Man Utd and Arsenal aren't even though they tried to fix the system is a bit more important than the meaningless accolade of a domestic cup that bears no significance on anything

 

I think that this is where people are disagreeing.
A lot of people would see Ferguson as the driver in this analogy, while you believe he's better compared to someone higher up the chain.
Is Ayrton Senna's legacy tainted because of how his teams are doing now? I wouldn't say so.

 

No offence, but I'm not - and as a Chelsea fan you should know this, because you've had a manager who operates in the exact same way that Ferguson did by having a team that could get across the line and win the league, only to implode into infighting the second the trophy parade had finished

I suspect that this is the reason why certain posters are aggravated by the idea that a manager with a high reputation failed to prepare for anything that happened after the title win, because those same posters are fully aware that we're the club currently employing them

On top of everything else, so many of those mouthing off about Poch aren't even mouthing off about Poch, they're using Poch as a conduit to mouth off about Daniel Levy - but in order to do that they have to ignore countless things, not least how Poch achieved considerably more than Harry Redknapp (who, unsurprisingly, the mouther-offers keep holding up as the ideal all Spurs managers should aspire to), or make comments completely unrelated to the facts, for example the idea that Poch binned off all domestic cups at the earliest opportunity...which means they have to pretend that none of these matches ever existed in order to keep typing, and that's ****ing bonkers

Yes, it does

He knew full well at the start of the 2012-13 season that both Scholes and Giggs would be retiring at the end of the season, with Scholes having already been tempted out of retirement as it was, while the likes of Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra were all getting long in the tooth and van Persie was a potential injury risk, and on top of that they'd sold various reliable squad players such as Brown and O'Shea the previous season and had Pogba leave, and this is where he's responsible for the team falling to bits: while he did bring in Zaha, Smalling and Jones as potential long-term replacements (none of them really worked out, but a lot of that can be filed under "**** happens" more than anything else) but where were the replacements for Scholes, or Evra, or van Persie? A decade previously he had squad continuity at the top of his agenda, but he abandoned all that for one last shot of glory and then left somebody else to fix the mess

While it's fair to say that bringing in Moyes was a gamble at best and a grave misstep at worst (which is somehow better than his current status as a meme...) dumping all the blame for the post-Ferguson malaise on him is simply unfair as the moment his feet were under the desk he had to rebuild a team due to so many players ageing, retiring or being injury risks and while it's no surprise that was far beyond his abilities, any manager would have known there would be a a season or two of rebuilding they faced - and I suspect that's why, for a job where they would have had the pick of available coaches, it worked out best for the club to have Moyes as a fall guy because if an Ancelotti or van Gaal or whoever took over and had the exact same problems it would be a lot harder to pretend that Ferguson wasn't the reason for them

 

Your reasoning that fergie has no legacy because the team has been crap since he left is basically saying that no spurs manager or even levy have any legacy either because spurs have never had a period of sustained success.

This is why you are wrong. To say that a guy who took a team who hadnt won a title, wasnt whe biggest at the time to where they were in 2013 and even where they are now and say hes left no legacy at the club is something i dont think many people would agree with even if i am a chelsea fan

I guess we are all sheep on here

 

Wrong. The reason I say that he left no legacy is because he didn't leave the club with anything but a convenient fall guy when the team fell to bits (literally in some cases) as soon as he was out the door

For the sake of comparison, Arsenal fans can absolutely say that George Graham left them a legacy, namely Adams, Keown, Seaman, Dixon and Winterburn - the bedrock of the side that Wenger inherited and built his first title-winning team upon, with Adams and Keown remaining at the club until Kolo Toure could get established

Realistically, it has to be said that Ferguson should have called it a day after the 2008 Champions League win as that would have left a legacy for whoever replaced him, as the likes of Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, van der Saar and Carrick all had a good three or four years of top-level football in them at that point, Neville, Giggs and Scholes could still be reliably called upon, and they also still had Tevez and the Oily Rat as they'd both remain at the club for another year. If he left then, and they brought in the right manager, it's not unreasonable to expect that they would have maintained the squad continuity to continue as they were

Also, there's a glaring flaw in the logic that winning trophies automatically means a manager has a legacy. It doesn't, because if it did that would mean Juande Ramos has a legacy at Spurs when he simply doesn't - but the acid test that winning trophies has nothing to do with a manager leaving a legacy is Pep Guardiola. Not his time at Barca, not his time at The Sheikh Mansour Team, but his time at Bayern: for those who think trophies = legacy he obviously left one at Bayern as he won three Bundesliga titles in a row and a couple of German cups thrown in...but not only do Bayern fans disagree with this, as they'd point out that Niko Kovac could win the Bundesliga and he was bloody useless, but the club itself also say otherwise with Karl-Heinz Ruminigge outright damning Guardiola's time at the club for his doubling the club's wage bill to maintain domestic results that are frankly the bare minimum yet failing to achieve the results in Europe that he was brought in to get - especially considering the season before Guardiola arrived saw Jupp Heynkes win the Champions League on top of a domestic treble (which somehow the Ballon d'Or committee missed, but that's another question for another time...), yet Guardiola not only failed to get Bayern beyond the semi-final stage, but when they reached that stage they were drubbed by Los Ladrones, drubbed by Barca, and tactically outdone by Atleti

 

Sustained success and legacy are not the same thing.
You can have sustained success without a legacy and vice versa. Of course Ferguson and Nicholson left a temporary legacy in the form of the club's reputation but neither had a permanent impact on their clubs which I would argue is the true definition of a legacy. For Man U I would say Busby and Spurs, Arthur Rowe were equally if not more important. Its actually building long lasting infrastructure that results in a legacy. That maximises the chances of winning trophies.
However I do agree that Pochettino's attitude wasn't the best for taking the final step towards winning. I think he was happy with what he had achieved on limited resources which was fair enough.

 

That sort of legacy can soon evaporate. Infrastructure doesn't.

 

What do you mean by infrastructure? As far as i im aware, since fergie began and ended at man u:

Stadium capacity increased to be the biggest in the country (still bigger than whl)
Finances boosted to be the best in the country
Pretty sure their training facilities improved
The academy still produces some great young players
Reputation of the club was still outstanding
Sponsorship deals still far bigger than everyone else (maybe not man citys affiliations)

Im not sure what else you expect from the infrastructute/legacy angle. Even without cl footie they are comfortably turning over more than the rest of the league (i believe)